I want to know how come Brand has peaked despite being younger than Francis and the same age as O'Neal? MacBeth, I agree with alot of what you say, but this makes no sense. Who's to say, with his work ethic that Elton can't become a better ft shooter or improve his range. Whats so different from his upside to O'Neal or Francis? His blks and rebounding has gone up every yr since his rookie yr and the only reason why his scoring isn't up as much is because he takes 2 less shots than he did as a rookie. If Brand was to take 18 shots a game, he'll avg 24-25pts per game as well as 11rebs to go along with 2.5 blks. You're so wrong on this on. I would give Francis up for Brand in a minute. Anyone on this board wants to know how we beat the Karl led Sonics? Everyone can talk about ao being doubled and everything, but would any team in their right mind double team Ming with the best offensive rebounder in the league lurking opposite of him. The reason we were able to beat seattle and get the wins were because even though Hakeem was slowing down, he was still effective. Even though Barkley wasn't the MVp of 93 in 97 he was still one of the best offensive rebounder in the league. Guess who played pg for us? Matt Maloney. No way Duncan or Brand gets doubled with the other on the court. Its one of the reason why in 99 Duncan didn't face many double teams becaus eDavid was still a all star, but more important, you couldn't just single cover him. We could talk about all the shooters you want, but if one guy gets 4.6 offensive rebounds per game and the rookie gets 2.5, you always want to keep a body on them thus eliminating the double team. The only way we get Brand without francis is to give up Cat,Griffin and a couple of picks. Ming would never see double teams with brand lurking opposite shoe blks or ft line.
hp - I'm not sure where the confusion lies. Smeggy's original statement was: "If the Rockets were really blown up, then one of Steve or Yao would have to go. If it was Steve who was traded this offseason, then who would you want in return and what do you actually think we could get. I would love to trade him for • Kidd • Jermaine O'Neal • Elton Brand • and possibly Darko and other bits" (My emphasis on the "what do you actually think we could get" portion). My response was (in part): "Realistically, we are not getting a KG, Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, or T-Mac, etc for Francis. And Sterling will not pay Francis's max salary so forget Brand IMO (unless there is a 3rd team involved receiving Francis). To the other extreme, I would not trade Steve for any draft choice...unless there was a major vet incoming with the deal...Rox are too young as is." So if you want only my opinion on Smeggy's options (barring BYC implications): Kidd - in a heartbeat J. O'Neal - only if we could get an experienced PG with court smarts and the ability to lead a break Elton Brand - if we could swing the deal, I could easily live with it. Darko or other draft related options - if and only if a vet is attached. I have expressed my opinion regarding what I thought was realistic. btw: I only mentioned the BYC issues because in the real world they make Francis nearly impossible to deal (as you already know). Now, what are we talking here? Realistic options or anything goes?
How about.... Michael Jordan! Or... Cuttino Mobley, James Posey, Eddie Griffin, Moochie Norris, Glen Rice, Maurice Taylor, Kelvin Cato, and our next 10 1st round draft picks for Kevin Garnett! We are stuck with Steve Francis.
HP, because you keep avoiding this, it must be the best possible option. btw, Gasol is a SF. Bleh. So there. Ok, ok, he plays the 4, (and very effectively, drawing fouls like a bad mf), but dude has game like a golden era 3. And he's no banger. Team Gasol with yao and an enforcer and its all good with Mooch and Matt Maloney in the backcourt. Yeah, I think we'd do a lot, a lot better. Ideally, a shooter and a defender.That's the game I have in mind. Yao-stud sf-enforcer, sharpshooter, d-guard. I like it better than Yao-stud post man,puss sf,jack happyG,pass-first no shot. You can always pound, but can't control the ball. A stud sf gives you the ball.
no....no....we need the franchise and yao they are our only 2 pieces.......trade eddie,cuttino or whoever else these 2 are our dynasty....we will win a championship again with these 2 in place!!!!! jason kidd would make it happen soon!!!!!
I would try to explore the chances of getting Arenas for Mobley and Griffin and then offering Francis/Posey or Francis/Cato for Brand.
i would not try to explore those chances. we give up mobley for arenas then throw in a high potential (that's how trades work with 20 year olds, regardless if you think he'll live up to expectations) PF, which adds big for small into the equation. i think i'll pass. then we have to give LAC other people for brand on top of francis? no way. also, you just traded 4 starters for 2. so now rice is our starting sf and i guess hawkins is our sg and we didn't even upgrade pg b/c arenas likes to shoot also?
I like Yao in the high post running the offense passing to a stud scorer PF all day. Yao waving to a SF is a perimeter offense requiring 5 guys to operate to improve on that and maximize Yao. Yao and Stud PF is easier to utilize Yao's passing, and easier to get Yao the ball. You can't deny him a pass at the elbow...and you can't leave Brand in the low post...how do you defend Yao at the elbow with Brand opposite low post, if not same side low post. bottomline for me is I just always dismiss teams that are based on SFs...that's just me. Sorry, I'm not impressed. The SF position is always the last position I will fill on a roster. And don't mention Larry Bird again...Bird transends his position. We might as well call Magic a Point Forward, for bejeezes. btw: you can't just say you're going to land a PF enforcer, and say I'm landing a pass first no shot PG...that's mean. anyhoot: my scenario is to maximize Yao as the guy running the offense from the elbow undoubleable because Brand is low post...why do I need a pass first PG, anyhow. but I digress ...we've had this conversation: Name all the NBA PF enforcers who aren't studs as well. How are you going to land one.
now freudian slip? maybe you should look that phrase up like "rhetorical question" I said Magic and Bird transcend prototype roles. What role did Magic play in game 6, anyhow. and what was up with Norm Nixon out assisting Magic for the first two years and getting 8apg in year 3. What is prototype about that? Was Norm a Point Shooting Guard. lol!!! Bird and Magic are not prototypes...they just rocked, and could play multiple roles. So, what is a point forward, anyhow?
I thought you meant to say the following... "We might as well call Bird a Point Forward, for bejeezes." Because that works too. So does "shooting forward." Or, "Power guard!" Heh heh...
Good small players are easier to find than good big ones. Ming would never see a double team with Brand on the same team. Francis plays with him and he still sees double teams. There is a huge difference.
perhaps i'm missing something here, but why would brand eliminate all double teams in the post? i know you have to concentrate on an offensive rebounding beast like brand and doubling would leave one guy uncovered to dive in for O boards (which just makes things worse rebounding wise for you), but if a guy is murdering a team single-covered, he's going to get doubled bruising PF or not. we are talking about down on the blocks right? no high post stuff for how? i don't actually remember, but didn't duncan get doubled when drob was still good? didn't hakeem or barkley still get doubled when they had each other (although not at their primes)? how does another post presence eliminate that possibility. defenses will try to figure out a way to compensate for the double before they get killed all day with single coverage. man, 1 away from 2000, it got here quick.
Really, I'll be happy if we land a stud at either forward position. Who, besides Brand, did you think we could get ? Not Garnett Not Duncan Not Webber Not Nowitzki Rasheed Wallace ? - Maybe. Bleh. Baggage. Gasol? Probably not. Why would West kill his frontcourt? Only if he drafts some unbelieveable phenom. Amare? Phoenix sez...no thanks, we have a combo guard. Then the drop-off. SAR? Antoine Walker? K-Mart? Kurt Thomas? A Davis? All not enough. So it's really only Brand. I don't think it's going to take Steve to land Brand, but if he's in the package, I want both Brand and Odom. Clips can have Cat, Eddie, Steve, and/or anyone else they may desire. Yao Brand Odom would set the frontcourt for years. Who are we kidding? Rockets aren't going to do squat.
I think Vince Carter is a better trade than KG or Duncan. Reasons: 1. If you had another post up player then the opposing team would just pack the paint and seal it up 2. Even if Carter doesn't come totally back from his 2 injury plagued seasons, he brings a lethal touch from beyond the arc 3. Combine one and two, u have a player who will keep people honest from zoning too much or doubling and tripling Ming. It works great The Lakers have it with Fisher and Shaq. We had it back when we won the two championships.
Interesting no one here has asked the BIG question - what are other teams willing to give up for a Steve Francis? I here people naively mentioning Dirk, Webber, Kidd straight up for Stevie - I laugh. Don't be angry or surprised if other teams start mentioning ridiculous trades like - Melvin Ely and Q for Francis, Jalen Rose for Francis, Tim Thomas for Francis, Cassel for Francis, Sprewel for Francis, Stackhouse for Francis, Bonzi for Francis, Eddie Jones for Francis, Kenny Thomas (sign and trade) for Francis, White Chocolate for Francis, Penny for Francis. Let me give you guys a clue - Phoenix will not trade away Starbury for Francis and Mobley.
How about this. Francis for J Oneal. Sign and trade Kidd/Payton for G Rice and draft pick. Or maybe MoT + Cato. NJ or the Bucks might do it since they will lose Kidd/Payton to free agency anyway and it gives them an expiring contract and draft pick to work with. Kidd or Payton goes to an instant contender. Rocket lineup: Yao Oneal Posey Mobley Kidd or Payton That looks pretty darn good.
