you consider t-mac or vince or kobe or kg lesser value long term???! ....credibility going down the tubes....
I'm with GATER on the SF being key. Also that you can't get a top 10 player for Steve. I'd also note that you probably can't trade him because of his contract until next year, or at least mid-season. Isn't he BYC? so very good SF's that are not top ten that can feed Yao are below, with a possible trade mate : Gasol/Jwil ? Odom/Miller? SAR/Terry? Carter/Williams? possibly LBJ or Carmelo, after scouting. Francis + bait (eddie, taylor, cat, whatever) for these packages are plenty ok. I don't think you get a top pf for Francis, unless there's some magic for Brand. A not-top pf isn't good enough. So I'll take a very good SF and someone else ok for our very good tweener guard and someone else ok. Of course I'd gladly trade Steve, Eddie and Cat for Odom and Brand. I hope we try that. I think we're going to have to wait for those guys to shake out. Denver and Utah have draft picks to offer. We do have Rice's contract, that we could pay out... err. Hmm..you know, Steve and Rice for Odom and Brand sounds like the right money. You'd like Odom a little cheaper - 6-7 mil. Maybe with a Jaric, if we can buy some draft picks to send back, or dump Boki. That Clippers thing makes me crazy!
Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Shaquille O'Neal Tracy McGrady Kobe Bryant Chris Webber Stephon Marbury Dirk Nowitski Jason Kidd Elton Brand
btw, if we were to trade steve, the only person that i want (that is reasonably available) is: vince carter. carter/ming...bring the ring.
Problem is, Steve is one of those invaluable players. His presence does so much for the team. So obviously getting back value...well, that's the tough thing, isn't it? But if I traded Steve, I would want to trade him to a team that won't suck hard. I have some loyalty to the guy; I think he wants to be here. So things depend on how the draft lottery shake out. For example, if Washington gets the #2 or #3 pick, (no one will trade away LeBron James at #1), I might trade Steve and T-Mo (Maryland/DC ties) to the Wizards (cap space, even if Stackhouse doesn't opt out: approximately $5 mil) for Larry Hughes and that draft pick. You might say Hughes is expendable but from what I understand, he dared defy Jordan by insisting he, Hughes, has talent of his own and shouldn't need to pass to Jordan all game. Hughes shoots well on 3's and defends OK. Take that high draft pick and voila, T.J. Ford. I would do these things if we could also move Cat, either straight up for Alvin Williams, or with EG and cap crap for Elton Brand. Or I'd trade Steve if a 3-way trade brought us Garnett. Or maybe Nowitzki. Not too many players out there worth the effort of such a trade.
Actually, I think I would do this trade. Many people tend to forget that Vince is actually the same age as Francis (only one month older), and both are 26. After watching some of Vince's highlight clips, particularly the Olympics, I almost forgot how good he was back than. Plus by doing this we can still get two All-star starters every year too -G'day-
The question posed is to trade Steve for someone. You are really going to trade Steve for a SF. Trading Steve for a PG has self-evident reasons. Trading Steve for one of those PFs improves defense/rebounding immensely, and allows YM to go to the high post to feed the PF, those making impossible to double YM. This scenario also allows makes EG instantly expendable for a guard or SF. I guess I just don't like to build around SFs as your prime players, so I think the only options for a Steve trade are indeed PG or PF. We already have a SF who does fine feeding Yao Ming, anyhow.
Who? Tmo? A superior wing player is completely different than Posey, Rice, Tmo, Boki, whatever. Ming/Carter is more effective than Ming/ Francis, imo. You have the same trade off on defense/offense but you can more readily neutralize the effect with the supporting cast - ie you're not all carved up before the game starts. Ming/Odom is more effective. Ming/Gasol is much more effective. It's been awhile since the days of great wings, but try to remember Larry Bird/Kevin McHale. The do-it-all wingman is a wonder with a great player inside, decent support, and team play.
Doesnt Detroit have Memphis' pick in the draft? if they get the 3rd pick overall, would u trade Steve for Carmello and Chaunci Billups??
more effective that what? Yao/Kidd? doesn't this whole thread presume that there are several things better than Ming/Francis. The point we are discussing is which one is the best. btw: Gasol is not a SF. remember what we are discussing. Saying that you need someone to pass the ball into Ming, as if only a handful of guys in the league can do it. Sure, I agree, but that is not the only thing. This "problem" can go away to a certain extent with Yao's own self-improvement (positioning, success at the FT line area, etc). What I also look at is Yao needs help on defense and rebounding, because overall our PFs are weaker than our SF position in a West-relative sense, for sure. So, you definitely can't dismiss the fact that a PF could very well make us a dominant defensive team in the league. Plus, it will help the offense, too, for sure, just the offensive rebounding aspect will help instantly. But the holy grail is that Ming/Brand or Ming/O'Neill allows Ming to pass to Brand/O'Neill from the free throw line. Ming now runs the offense. Try to double Brand/O'Neill now with Ming parked at the freethrow line. this is not Hakeem/Thorpe where both could only play the low post. Yao is destined to play some at the elbow to open up maximum passing lanes. pasox2, so you bring up Larry Bird. Let me bring up Bill Walton. Who was the leading scorer on Bill Walton's title team? Maurice Lucas...a PF. The idea is the high post/low post attacks with great C/PF combos is not that difficult. The Spurs do that with Duncan/Robinson.
Larry Hughes shoots well from 3? This season was by far his best output, and it only got up to 36%. For his career he is a 23% 3pt shooter. Thats worse than Barkley. He doesn't even shoot enough of them to be ranked, but there are over 40 players that shoot them better, including very attainable people like Jon Barry and Charlie Ward. If you want 3pt shooting, sign anybody but Larry Hughes.
Well, he did hit 36% last year. I guess if he could sustain it. Like Nowitzki suddenly became a good rebounder, I suppose.
I would trade Steve Francis for... NEVER STEPHON MARBURY!!!!!!!! But hmm... Not Baron Davis. Not Steve Nash. Not Mike Bibby. But Jason Kidd yes. Gary Payton.....nope. Rasheed Wallace heh yes. Elton Brand yes. Dirk Nowitzki muahahaha I wish. Chris Webber sure. Pau Gasol NO. Kevin Garnett.......I super dream and dream and wish. Tim Duncan Shaq. Woohoo. Kobe.... T-Mac... Vince Carter yes. Shawn Marion HECK NO. I don't want to trade Steve for any guards. He's already one of the top. THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS JASON KIDD. I think Yao needs another star forward. I'd rather have a small forward who can shoot and drive and stuff like Vince Carter because hopefully Yao can be our main inside postman... But of course..any of the power forwards listed above would be fantabulous. Guards...not Moochie. Waive him. Get a European player who is intelligent and a good ballhandler and can shoot. Mobley can just stay in the corner and shoot 3's now with his new and fresh knees. But I don't know why anyone in heck would want Steve Francis.... Anyways.... Isn't he a BYC player? We can't trade him right? Not this season...
First - PG for PG... Kidd = pipedream GP = instant playoffs when teamed with Yao but not much further due to limitations Payton's age and Cat, Posey, and EG/MoT as the role players. Andre Miller = less athleticism, more court saavy...net wash Baron Davis = assuming he's healthy...is he worth the max? I doubt it, but some team is going to offer it IMO. So...where is the value for value when trading PG for PG? I don't see it under any reasonable scenario even if we dispense with Francis's BYC status. IMO, unless it's Kidd...why bother discussing it? Secondly, name one PF that Francis could realistically be traded for? Let's even dispense with Francis's BYC status. Brand is as close as it gets and Sterling will never pay Francis's max contract so this would have to involve a 3rd team that wants Francis and has something the Clipps want. Possible but not probable IMO. PF may have the right perspective on stone tablets, but if there are no reasonably attainable PF's it is nothing more than a good theory. We could discourse PF vs SF indefinitely but this is the easiest way to keep it in perspective. All Star quality SF's can postup, have shooting range, finish on a fastbreak, play the passing lanes and make a significant contribution in transition D. All attributes which mesh well with Yao. Tim Duncan is arguably the best PF in the game. Kevin Garnett is arguably the best SF in the game. They are both 1st class examples. Now, I challenge you to use your imagination and think of which player would be the most productive with Yao and which player Yao would take to a higher level. IMHO, Garnett because Duncan and Yao have redudant skills in the manner that Francis and Mobley do.
LOL...Garnett is a pipedream too.... Francis, Mobley, Posey, and Griffin, and 5 1st round draft picks ALL FOR GARNETT?
Did you bother to read the post? I was not proposing trading for Garnett. Only comparing the concept of a PF vs SF acquisitions. Re-read it slowly this time.
' Well I wish we could get him. And yes. Garnett would of course be better for our team than Duncan. Garnett is more versatile. Can play everything. A good power or small forward..either one would be nice. We shouldn't trade Steve for another point guard...only Jason. Big men!
GATER, I don't understand that last post. Smeggy said,,, Kidd, Brand or O'Neil You said...no I want a small forward. I said...why, Kidd is better than a SF matched-up with Yao, and Brand/O'Neil bring defense and rebounding to go with the offensive. The PF route can make us a dominating defensive squad. You said...well, Kidd, O'Neil and Brand are pipedreams or not realistic. I'll end with saying Washburn is not worth Francis not matter who you toss in on the side, and Gasol is not a SF. OK...that was a riveting conversation. btw: you can't pull the "BYC status" thing to toss at others while suggesting Francis trades yourself.
