Richard Jefferson vs. Other Players: What makes RJ so scary

I'm sorry but RJ's defense and basketball IQ trumps Wafers by along shot.

 

What makes him so scary is that he's going to a team that needs exactly what he brings. He can run the floor, finish on the break,attack the rim,defend,rebound ,shoot the 3 and reopens thw spurs window. Now a team that won the division injured. Not only that, they gave up trash. If u don't think the spurs have re emerged as a 1 or 2 seed, ur crazy.

 

Attitude, RJ is a vetern, but still young enough to go a full season strong. RJ is a smarter player and can fit within a system like san antonio (wafer could not). RJ is not a black hole (sorry wafer)... we can go on.

 

Wafer can't even be consistent game to game. He'll be great one game, and look like a total rookie the next. This comparison is a joke.

 

RJ is rumored to be a G-Man. That makes him scary.

 

Bruce Bowen is gone, so the SF spot is open. Then of course, RJ could still play SF and Ginobili start again..

 

"Sigh" The Spurs will be quite interesting next season. Great, more problems for the Rox. Let's just hope they pull a Phoenix Suns.

 

I will applaud the Spurs for making this deal but I won't be scared of them unless they sign Jason Kidd to the MLE.

 

That is what I expect to happen.

 

And now SanAntonio is in luxury tax hell. Tough to make moves for them here on out. They basically traded Bowen, Oberto, KurtThomas and all their cap space in 2010 for Richard Jefferson.

 

Everything you've stated and shown with "per minute" stats points to the fact that both of those players should be starters and good players in the NBA, yet..... they aren't. I won't bother with Von Wafer since this is the first year his per 36 numbers were worth a squat, so moving on, do I reject your points-per-minute argument or do I reject the talent appraisals of the coaches and teams that owned the rights to Flip Murray, for example, in the past? Flip's numbers per 36 minutes have always been around 15-16 ppg, 3.5-4 apg, 1.5 steals, etc. for his entire career, yet he couldn't be called a Richard Jefferson on the Bucks, Sonics, Cavs, Pistons, Pacers, or Hawks. Why do you suppose this is? I say it's because the per-36 minute stat is a poor gauge of statistical progression. I'm not sure if any studies in correlation have been done on it, but just on a hunch, I think it's a crapshoot. In his case, you say his per-36 min stats indicate he is as good as Jefferson, yet history has shown several teams have not thought so.

Early on people said that RJ was only a product of Jason Kidd's PG skills. Kidd's skills waned and he left the team, yet RJ still did well. RJ went to another team with another offense and no Kidd, and he still did well.

I'll go one step further... here you go. In the 2005-2006 season, Flip Murray averaged 36.7 minutes per game with his stint with the Cavs. Check his stats.

 

Jefferson without Kidd isn't a bad player but he's far from being the top flight player he was when he had Kidd as his point guard.

Not counting his rookie year with the Nets, Jefferson's PER every year with Kidd at the PG helm was at least 16.6 every year. The only dip is the year when he went down in 06-07. His first year with the Bucks, Jefferson's efficiency wasn't bad by any means but it was his lowest in a year where he actually played most of the season (15.45). His true shooting % also was the lowest he's had since his rookie season. His FG% went down as did his FTA and his assists. It might seem like I'm just throwing out stats that are going against Jefferson but his efficiency last year (being the Bucks' #2 or even #1 scoring option mind you) was lower than Corey Maggette's, Ron Artest's, or even Trevor Ariza's.

Some might think, "well that's not who Jefferson is. His role is better defined as being a role player who will play well within the system" . This may be true but the only time we've ever seen Jefferson in this type of role was when he was Vince Carter's sidekick and Jason Kidd's recipient of alley oops.

Like I said earlier, the only way that Richard Jefferson can be effective to the point where we can put this trade up their with the "Gasol to LA" or "Drexler to Houston" is if the Spurs had a bonafide passing point guard at the helm (e.g. Free Agent Jason Kidd). Otherwise, Jefferson is not going to give them the production his contract is worth.

 

I don't disagree. So which would you say is a better indicator of who he really is? His numbers for the first 6 or so years of his career which are fairly consistent or his last one? Richard Jefferson's numbers have been fairly consistent his entire career. Jefferson is a good-to-very good player and has proven it throughout his career. Murray is a journeyman, albeit, a good one at times. Their most recent per-36 numbers aren't good indicators of the type of players they are and shouldn't be used as sole comparisons to decide whether they are just as good as one another from a stats standpoint.

 

While I'm not as high on, or as worried about, Richard Jefferson as some Rockets fans I've seen discussing this trade... I don't think it's really a legit argument to suggest Von Wafer is nearly as good (or as good) as RJ. It's fair to bring up each player's recent stats and point to those facts as a means of asking the question "what makes RJ better than x player" but that's quite different from suggesting that Von Wafer is currently just a smidge below RJ's level of play.

Von Wafer is a good young role player, he has some serious natural talent and has proven himself an able scorer and a spark off the bench. However, he's also proven himself to be a ball hog, a streaky player, usually a defensive liability, and quite often his youth and inexperience manifest themselves via on court mistakes and a low basketball IQ. Yes, these things may yet improve; as he grows he'll gain basketball IQ, limit the mistakes, and he might even learn to be less of a ball hog when his streaky play lends itself to constant brick laying, but even if he does those things I think he's still gonna lack the intangibles and consistancy of Jefferson.

Not that Jefferson is a top tier player without many faults, but Von Wafer-in the best scenarios I foresee-will only ever be a top tier roleplayer on a championship contender or a 15-20/4/3per game second option on a average to bad team that needs him for his ability to score because they have little else to turn to for points. Maybe I'm wrong about that, or about everything Ive written, but even though RJ playing for our archrivals the Spurs doesn't scare me and I feel people calling SA a lock to win the division are crazy; Jefferson has some things Flip and Wafer currently do not have-and indeed may never have.

Wafer and Flip are good players, no disrespect to them, but look at it this way: if you had to pick one, who would you most prefer to have if they all cost the same price? If you don't pick Richard Jefferson over Wafer or Flip Murray then prepare to be visited by the ghost of Red Auerbach-he'll be coming to explain basketball and the nuance of wise personnel decisions to you before too long!

 

Anybody that loses Kidd as a PG feeding him is more than likely going to suffer, but that wasn't my point. I was talking about people that said Kidd made Jefferson's game. Jefferson is a good player without Kidd. Kidd did make him a better player, but then great PG's do that. It's not as if they lost Kidd and his numbers fell off a cliff.

Ugh. PER. Michael Redd's PER on the Bucks was the lowest its ever been outside of his rookie year on the Bucks, too. I concede his PER was lower, but he was also on a much worse team, so I don't know which had more effect. To me he proved that he's still a pretty damn good player outside of the offense and PG that people attributed his success to.

Not true. In the '04-'05 season it was lower. He only played in 33 games that year. Also saying his TS% was low that year is doing him a bit of injustice. His career TS% is 56.4%. His TS% last year was 55.4%. Not a monstrous difference. The deviation in TS% of all his years isn't huge - he's consistently good in that regard.

Come on now... his eFG% dropped about .008, his FG% dropped about 3%, which is a drop, but he's still at a respectable 43.9%. His 3 Pt shooting is at the highest it's ever been at 39.7%. His FTA went down from the previous season with the Nets (the highest it's ever been), but it's above his career FTA average. Trevor Ariza and Ron Artest haven't carried the same responsibilities on offense as RJ has, so I can't compare their offensive efficiencies. Maggette is hard to argue, but then he's a black hole of a player that I can't stand a times. His numbers are higher than probably a lot of people nobody would trade him for, too...

I'm not arguing the value of his contract. I think the OP was trying to figure out why people were scared of the Spurs getting him. That remains to be seen in my opinion, but I'm definitely arguing the OP's argument that somehow using per-36 min numbers, he's about the same player as a Von Wafer or a Flip Murray.

 

And with Popovich's system, RJ will thrive playing along side Parker, Manu and Duncan. RJ had a similar situation when He was with the Nets.
Parker=Kidd
Manu=VC
Duncan=Martin and others

 

In the 2008-2009 season, on a per 36 minutes basis.

Player A: 24.7 points, 8.0 rebounds, 2.3 assists. 1.9 turnovers, .564 TS%

Player B: 21.7 points, 8.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 2.4 turnovers, .529 TS%


What makes Player A that much better Players B?


I am just trying to figure out why some people were so worried about the 8 time all-star, MVP, multiple All-NBAer.


In case anyone is wondering:

Player A is

Spoiler

Player B is

Spoiler

Player B plays 20+ minutes so it's not like he can't hang with regular nba players. I mean it's not like he always plays against other bench players. Imagine what a steal it would be if Player A was traded for Player B and a lottery pick.

 

I don't hink its panic time just yet, we still match up exceptionally well with the Spurs. They have no one that can handle Yao in the post and RJ is not the type of player that goes off on our defense. Also RJ played his best ball in the freewheeling Nets/Kidd offense, the Spurs are a hardcore system offense that I can see it not playing to his strengths. I'd be shocked if he averages more than 15 ppg next season.