Good point. Price was actually very solid at PG until the ACL injury, much better than Maloney. Barkley was not the reason Houston got past Seattle. Hakeem played much better against Seattle in 97 than he did 96 and ironically it was Maloney's hot shooting against the Sonics which really tilted the scales. That series was just as evenly played as the 93 WCF when Houston lost to Seattle in Game 7. Rudy also made some adjustments in the 97 series, one being putting Hakeem on Kemp which was huge in that u got a more athletic defender on Kemp and also got Hakeem away from Perkins who he would always lay off of and Perkins would kill Houston with his 3 ball. Just because you lose to a team in the playoffs 2 of 4 years, doesnt mean you will never beat them with basically the same cast (see Utah-Houston). Ditto for Clyde, who was banged up in the 96 series against Seattle. Let's also not forget that the Rockets had a complacent aura about them in 96 after b2b titles. Horry and Cassell were just too clutch in the playoffs to give up both of them. Horry was really missed against Utah, where his weakside D and clutch shooting were always huge.
With all this you seem to forget a few things 1) Marion would not be player he would be without Nash 2) Tmac would NOT be the player he is w/out Hill getting injured in Orlando and Tmac taking on that dominant role. People always talk how good Tmac was but he never would've been that good had he never been given the chance and on that team he wouldnt have 3) NEVER GOTTEN YAO 4) Mcdeyss is OVERRATED and uber injury prone I don't know there is alot of problems with this team even. I am happen what has happened look at our badass team this year .
The 1998 Rockets were a vastly inferior team to the 1996 Rockets. The whole point of the debate is, did we mortgage our future for one year? It funny how the Barkley supporters laugh at the "coulda, woulda" counter factuals when they forget the real factual was that we did NOT win a title with the trade.
And why do you think Hakeem suddenly played so much better against them as opposed to in previous years? Because the Barkley trade's intended goal worked to fruition - we traded for Charles so they couldn't swarm Hakeem inside leaving another dominant big man inside alone in the paint. Skimming through this thread, a couple of points: You really are delusional if you think that '96 team as assembled was going anywhere but down. I guess it's just the sentimental effect of winning two championships with that cast and thus convincing yourself it could work again. That team was headed nowhere. The Barkley trade was made for financial reasons as much as for on-court. Rumblings within the organization were that they weren't going to be able to re-sign both Cassell and Horry who would each be asking for $7-$8million/yr. Barkley was only making about $5million in those days. One of those two was going to have to go and this was the best opportunity to cash out. Someone said we lost not because of Maloney but because of a "bear hug." False. We lost that series because with a 7 point lead with 2 minutes to go in Game 6, John Stockton suddenly realized he had Matt Maloney guarding him and went "Deron Williams" to the tune of 7 straight points. Which leads me to my next point. We are in the Finals in '97 if Rudy/Charles don't stubbornly refuse to sign Kevin Johnson who was waiting by his phone midseason. I'll leave that at that as I know most of the posters from '99 are sick of me bringing this up. What is more concrete is that the front office stubbornly refused to include a 1st round pick in a deal that would have sent Brent Price to Dallas for Derek Harper. That costed them the championship. You don't win titles with Sedale Threatt and Matt Maloney at the point unless Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen are bringing it up. Someone mentioned the earlier 3 way involving Mutombo that would have seen as keeping Cassell. That is false. The trade was Cassell and Horry to Denver, Mutombo to Phoenix, and Charles to Houston. I still remember Charlie Palilo on 740 jizzing his pants at the thought of Phoenix's potential starting lineup (Green, Finley, Mutombo, Majerle, KJ). You make that Barkley trade 10 times out of 10, given our circumstances. Some of you are really overrating Sam and Robert. The Barkley trade produced the single most exciting regular season in Rockets history. From our first taste of national attention, to the 21-2 start, to the almost inevitable clash in the Finals with the Bulls. At the respective stages in their careers, Boston's Big 3 is better than ours was. KG at 31, Ray Allen at 32, PP in his prime at 29, are more dangerous than our 34 year old threesome. Now if you put them all in their primes, ours blows that one out of the water, but this isn't fantasy land. Both Allen and Peirce are more dangerous scorers than any of our 3 were at that point, and KG is far superior to Barkley at that point, maybe comparable to Hakeem. I don't think they'll get to the Finals this year though unless they get some supporting players. That is what killed us. They will get there the next year, IMHO.
I agree..... all 3 players (speaking of the rockets) were all past their primes...... Pierce should still be in his prime, KG is still only 31, and Allen doesn't seem like father time is slowing him down as much ............... as far as the Barkley trade goes, it was bad imo....we immediately got older .... in '96 we weren't healthy the entire year and we didn't have a true PF..... I always thought we should've just went out and got another PF...
The Hakeem(33)/Clyde(34)/Barkley(33) trio of 96-97 were a couple of years older, but still playing very good basketball and it can't be too bad when you get to the conference finals. But, Thats a couple of years older than the Celtics trio. I'd still argue that it was a better trio than the Celtics, but very comparable. The difference being 2 years, which is a big difference. I think they will go to the finals this year without worrying about whos manning the point, since they are in the East. I don't think they will win it all though. But I think they have a legitimate two, maybe three year period and then they are done. You have to make these type of trades though b/c they weren't going to go anywhere as it was.
A couple things I would like to add: The Rockets went 0-4 in the regular season against the Sonics during the 95-96 season. They also went 0-4 against the Sonics during the second championship run. Counting the 96 playoffs, the Rockets were 0-12 against them over a two year span. The 96-97 Rockets team with Chuck went 3-1 against the Sonics. Glide didn't play in the game that the Rockets lost. Another misconception is that Barkley took away shots from Hakeem. I don't think anyone would assume that Hakeem's scoring average would increase after adding another post player, nor would they think they it would take a sudden hit. If you look at the stats, Dream scored 23.2 points in 36.8 minutes in the 96-97 season (about 2.2 minutes less than the previous year). He averaged similar point numbers in 85-86 (23.5, 36.3 min), 86-87 (23.4, 36.8 mins), and 90-91 (21.2, 36.8 mins). Dream played between 39-41 minutes during his prime, so obviously he averaged more points. Sure, his rebound numbers were also down from previous years, but that has to be expected. Barkley didn't take away as many shots as some people think. This is analogous to saying that Yao will get less shots this year. This could be true, we will find out. But it wouldn't be far fetched to assume this because of 3 added scoring punches in Francis, James, and Scola. I would take a farther run into the playoffs any day over a couple more points on Yao's scoring average. Similarly, I would take a series victory over the Sonics any day over some extra points on Dream's scoring average.
I think his contract with the Suns might have blocked that signing I think you're confusing the 1996-97 season with the 1998-99 season. KJ was averaging over 20 points and 9+ assists that season ... Phoenix did acquire Jason Kidd later that year, but we couldn't have signed KJ nor afforded him in a trade (not to mention Phoenix wasn't exactly looking to help us after Barkley was badmouthing them). Now in 1998-99, KJ sat around all season as a free agent waiting for our call. He was on the decline, but still might have helped. According to Bob Young of the Arizona Republic at that time, Charles, Rudy and Eddie Johnson wanted KJ but Hakeem and Scottie Pippen did not. February 14, 1999 ClutchFans: Interesting Insight on KJ February 11, 1999 ClutchFans: KJ's agent says yes, Rockets say no February 8, 1999 ClutchFans: KJ wants to hear from Rockets
IIRC, Maloney got benched like halfway through the third quarter. Sure, Stockton made the shot, but he does not get open if not for the bearhug on Clyde. On paper, MAYBE. It's not really an appropriate comparison with two forwards and a guard vs. a center, forward, and guard... Barkley may have been a shadow of his former self during his time with the Rockets, but he still regularly abused younger players who (on paper) should have gotten the best of him because he was such a crafty veteran. I will concede that they blow Big Three v.2 (no-knees Olajuwon, Barkley, back-spasm Pippen) out of the water though.
We lost the series the series cause the *@##$##@@%% refs LET that dirty little @#$%%^$%$# Stockton hook Maloney all freakin series!
I don't know if KJ would have helped that much. I have never seen a bigger drop off from one season to the next than the one KJ had between 96-97 and 97-98.
Me neither.. we traded away a good portion of our championship team. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. I would have loved to see how far we could've gone with our 2nd championship team. Oh well, shiet happens for a reason... better years to come!
the benefit is not only the title run, but also franchise profile. the period from 1994-1998 raised the visibility and following of this franchise. kinda the same way roger clemens raised the profile of the Astros. from an international perspective though, none of this had an effect comparable to Yao. so if everything that happened, from the failed big three title run to franchise is responsible for Yao I'm good with that.
Good call on KJ. You're right, he was still in Phoenix that year. I'm pretty sure '97 was the year of the proposed Derek Harper trade, though. Our backcourt absolutely killed us those 3 years. Sedalle Threatt and Matt Maloney at the point in '97, Maloney and Price in '98 with Clyde on one leg at the 2. '99 was the worst though when Mobley and Dickerson gave us absolutely nothing in the postseason after promising regular seasons. I think Brent Price and Sam Mack got the bulk of the minutes in the playoffs that year. Speaking of Sam Mack, anyone else recall the insider report on this site summer of '99 when Sam Mack said he would play Shandon Anderson 1 on 1 for a spot on the team? LOL.
