[reversal] China caves to int'l pressure, will meet w/D. Lama reps

Untrue. Look at all the stars. They change constantly due to inside forces.

You sounded like Obama -_- We dreamed big before, I mean, really really big. We dreamed a communist utopia where "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need", where there will be no inequality and no exploitation, where the whole world will live in harmony. That dream, well, you know where it led us. The Chinese people are a pragmatic bunch. We dream, but stay awake most of the time.

 

It concerns my empathy for condition of all mankind.

I'm an insufferable romantic and Utopian.



Your pragmatic answer then is democratic socialism. Public participation in the pursuit of a communist utopia. The problem with Mao and his successors is they dictate to the people instead of the people dictating to them.
Do you think any elected officials would have enacted the Cultural Revolution?

Having to convince the people of the reasonableness of your positions rules out a lot of stupidity, not all of it, but the worst of it.

 

the word utopian(utopia) almost always brings human suffering. it's a good idea that will never come true without bloodshed. we should keep it an idea, not a realization.

 

So what exactly does your empathy for condition of all mankind consist of? You do not seem to have a problem with people in other countries suffering greatly due to political and/or economical turmoil, all you care about is they have your ideal human rights?

 

Neither. I will become a college professor in finance here in the States.

But seriously, I will try to help facilitate dialogue among different parties and help build national reconciliation by writing books, presenting my thinking to decision makers and by personally engaging in talks with people from all political walks. My contribution probably will not carry too much weight but I figured that at least it is better than directing my energy at pointing fingers.

 

If the people have their freedom, they won't suffer more. They will choose to interact in the collective interest, because it serves their own interest.

That's how the US got it's infrastruture.

Well since there has never been one, I don't know how you can say that. Utopia will certianly be a participatory society though. If we ever do see one , it will be an evolution in human thinking that brings it about. Bloodshed would be the opposite of Utopian.

It wouldn't be in our lifetime anyway, or ever, but you have to have a road map or just keep going around in circles.

 

Are you under 30? Please check facts about the various democratic nations around the world and report back.

 

My stock answer is not the US, I prefer to hold Norway and Iceland as examples. I'm pretty excited about the future Bhutan though.

And I don't mean it is a seamlessly smooth existence. Freedom comes in fits and starts and it's always a struggle to maintain. The default for human government is probably more fuedal than free.

 

An excellent answer to a question that, in my opinion, insults the interest and curiosity many of us have about the wide world, history, politics, religion (or the lack of it), and so many other things. What's in it for us? Does there need to be anything in it for us? No, there doesn't need to be anything more than our interest and curiosity.

Qiao, thank you for a very interesting, civil, and intriguing post. It makes me want to improve my behavior!

I saw the film in your link. I think I have seen at least part of it before, in documentaries about WWII, perhaps. It illustrates several things, of course, and you mentioned them. The way the US produced short films that played in movie theatres across the country during WWII for both propaganda and, in their own way, education. People today tend to forget the romantic fascination Americans had with China. It remained, really, until the CCP victory over the Nationalists and the decision by those in power in the US to lump China together with the USSR as a threat to the country's security. There was still some sentiment for China prior to the Korean War among a lot of people here, I think, but the Chinese intervention put paid to that, in my opinion.

Of course, there is the description of China itself in the film, which was perfectly produced to stir that American fascination with China to the point where we would be willing to fight for her, and fight to help supply her, which was more to the point, given the circumstances that existed. It was a different time. My father fought during the war in the Pacific, although he wasn't really supposed to. That's another story I've told here before. (I'll spare everyone!)

I look forward to you being part of our discussions here and hope you help improve the tone for everyone.




Impeach Bush.

 

Qiao:

Nice to read your posts. I've always knew the 89 process is somewhat manipulated. But to add to what you said here are my main points.

* Main forces to change China can only be within China. That's true for China and most other big countries. Sun had to get back to China to topple Qing. In the Mao era, there were many Chinese who lived in the West and tried to change China. None of them succeeded. Mao was the few who didn't study aboard but he understood Chinese people. All those democratic dissidents today who lived in the US contributed to the change in China far less than those in China. Same for Dalai Lama. Can you imagine Nelson Mandella change South Africa were he fled in stead of stayed imprison in the country?

* All that happened is actually good for the Chinese people. Too often, Chinese youth swing from totally apolitical to radical (right or left). They need to learn how to think critically, protest with measure, push for social change, argue for rights, activism without violence. This presents a stage.

* The knowledge is the power.

 

like you said, to achieve utopia, there has to be an evolution in human thinking. at the time, any effort to get there will only bring chaos and suffering. there are too much difference between people. it's easy to maintain in a small group. but globalization won't allow that much anymore. we probably need billions alien attacking us for the evolution in thinking. actually, even with the aliens, people will still find ways to look at each other differently.

 

The good examples are all in established traditional rich nations. How about democracies like Mexico, India, Agentina, the list could go on and on. These countries were all in much better shape than China in the 70s, but look at the progress made in China compre to these nations. So if I am a Chinese living in China I should have to gave up the economic gains for more freedom? I wonder how the poor people in those nations feel?

To me the most important function of a government is to improve the lives of its citizens without causing great damges to those outside the country.

 

PS, I might see you in those finance conferences one day.

 

Another live example that basketball, politics and finance are inseparable parts of human way of living!

Michecon, I've been reading your posts for free for some years already -_- We joined this board around the same time. Keep up the passion, but don't you dare consider me a China outsider

 

Silly Marxist. Once century of failure not enough to convince you that collectivism and freedom are diametrically opposed ideals?

 

One* century

 

Hey, we've had this discussion before.

My idea of a more perfect union would be a multi-party democratic republic where the natural resources and the production of the necessities of life would be held by the people. Basically all those industries that are heavily regulate in the US now and the historical monopolies we have dictated allowable profits to should just be held by the people rather than relinquished to private exploitation. Just think of it as the same companies we have now but the majority stockholders are the people represented by the government. Elected officials would be ultimately responsible for the direction, customer satisfaction and profit of the company instead of private interest; energy, electricity, mining, farming cooperatives, the internet, public housing. The amount of taxes you'd pay would be determined by how successful the interest were so the public would be vested. Management could be incentivized without $300 retirement packages.

It's just a pipe dream, but the world doesn't have to run on greed.

 

Deckard,

One thing that I've noticed about D&D is that good-intentioned discussions quickly detiorate into shouting contests all the time. People forget that there's a perfect place somewhere else to participate in a shouting contest - the Toyota Center...

Any word on when Bush will get impeached? I know this is a bomber to you, but I actually think that Bush has done a decent job defending the U.S. national interest. But my opinion could very well be biased, though. Battery Park in the ground-zero area used to be my favorite spot in the city and I played badminton and soccer there with my friends on some weekends. Gone with 911. Together with 2,752 innocent lives. My company went downhill from there and within months I lost my job. It took me 5 hours to walk home that day. Last time I walked that far in a city it was in Beijing in 1989.

 

Yes, you can safely say I strongly disagree with how Bush has handled the 9/11 aftermath, excepting Afghanistan, which is busy going downhill, in large part due to our enormous commitment in Iraq.

And I have other reasons for impeaching the man.



Impeach Bush.

 

When I heard that Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the master mind behind the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, said that his only regret was that he failed to bring down the twin towers, I had a very very bad feeling. When hatred goes that deep towards a people, there's no simple solution. I just don't want politicians to mislead the average Joes into believing that solving the problem is as easy as getting the troops out of Iraq or making them stay there for another hundred years. Maybe as an "outsider" I shouldn't care this much about American security issues. What do you think, Deckard.

Sorry for going off topic.