[reversal] China caves to int'l pressure, will meet w/D. Lama reps

Then memories are short. My parents went through the Great Depression and had those experiences up close and personal. My father's family was split up among relatives who could afford to feed one extra mouth, but not more. So were some members of my mother's family.

Times were incredibly tough for several years, until the outbreak of WWII in Europe, when the US began ramping up for the inevitable conflict with the Axis and pouring money into changing over the idle factories to making tanks, ships, aircraft, munitions, and the countless other things we needed and that we supplied to our allies, like Great Britain, the Soviet Union and China. Then people began to work. Millions out of work or just getting by went into the military, either drafted or, like my father, enlisting. He graduated at the top of his class at a Houston high school and the best job he could get, before Pearl Harbor, was as a guard on a small airline carrying cargo and the mail.

The United States wasn't always the wealthiest country on Earth. We worked our collective butts off making it happen.




Impeach Bush.

 

it sucks to be hungry and cold. China since the Opium War, until 1970's, for about a hundred and 50 years was constantly in that condition. for the first 50 years, it was foreign invasions. for the 2nd 50 years, it was radical cultural change, civil wars, and war world. for last few decades, it was rebuilding, power struggle.

it went from roughly 33% global GDP before Opium War, to 5% before the modernization. it's not fun from being rich to dirty poor in a hundred years. memories won't be short if it lasted that long.

 

Memories are only short for those not paying attention. In the 1930's, not only the US, but much of the rest of the world was in dire condition. It was one of the reasons dictators like Hitler managed to gain and maintain power. His people gave up much of their freedom to regain economic prosperity. Only too late did they realize just how much they were giving up and just what the creature ruling them had in mind. My guess is that the great majority of Germans would have gladly traded their economic well-being to be rid of Hitler and the Nazis, once it was clear how mad they were.

I wonder what the Chinese would give up to be rid of the oligarchy of the CCP?



Impeach Bush.

 

most people don't realize that Chinese people have a habit of overthrow bad governments. it's been done over and over again for thousands of years. if people really don't like the government, it's going to be gone.

if the Chinese government has gone to the "evil" side, i am sure people are going to do something. but for now, the government is doing it's best to make people happy for most part. that's why, we won't see another 1989 protests again. the big problem now is social inequality.

 

Here is the thing that most westerners dont know.

Westerners quickly make the assumption that "all chinese are robots who follows the Oh So glorious communism party to propserity".

Most Chinese, at least alot of the younger chinese DOES infact want China to be a democratic country, I mean who in thier right mind doesnt want that? Who doesnt want freedom? and having the right to speak out, everyone int he world wants thier opinion heard, its in our DNA.

So why do we continue to support the government? Lets make an analogy.
Even though you hate your little brother to guts, you are still going to put your life on the line for him, if someone else tries to bully him right? Its an inherent thing to do, and its the mentality that most chinese have these days "china against the world". But can we help it? No we cant, with the mass western media criticising everything and anything chinese, (ie racist american TV commentator and biased media, please dont argue otherwise). So what the western media is doing now, is doing my harm than good for change in china I believe.

Second point, we chinese people have lived in the system longer than anyone else, and we are not stupid or as idealogical as some of the others criticising us. We know that change takes time, and China is definitely changing. If we are happy at how the change is going, and the pace of the change, why does it bother anyone else. Do those criticals honestly think that they can just snap thier finger, and BANG China turns into a democratic party without any stirngs attached? I think we are been very realistic, and that we are patiently awaiting the day, it may take 10 years, or 50 years or 100 years. But if thats what it takes for change (while having minimal effect onthe people who is residing in china currently) then thats how long we have to wait unfortunately.

 

I won't argue with you over the fact that getting democracy for the people of China, short of what would probably be a violent change in government, will take time, but I do disagree with your view of Western media. We have a host of sources for information, which has been said in this forum many times, and we can pick and choose what to believe, what to ignore, what to laugh at, and what we feel doesn't deserve our attention. It completely fails to take into account the version of events, the influence, the orchestration, if you will, of the government controlled media in China. The current flap over France and "the torch" is a perfect example. This has been blown WAY out of proportion, to the point of absurdity. In my opinion, this has occurred in large measure due to the coverage of the events by that government controlled media.

With what appears (to me) to be worldwide, orchestrated demonstrations and protests following the "torch," all China is doing is drawing negative attention to itself. Today, I read of protests in South Korea, of all places, after similar protests in Australia. China is politicizing what should be a happy time for the country by this response to a relative few demonstrators against China's actions in Tibet. This isn't encouraging people to want to make a trek halfway around the world to watch the Olympics, in my opinion. I'm beginning to think the Olympics are wanted by the Chinese government more for internal reasons than for external ones. More to add to the oligarchy's legitimacy among the Chinese people during a time of great change in the country, than for burnishing China's image among the people of the world.

I hope some efforts are made soon by the Chinese government to reach some sort of dialogue with the Tibetan people and the Tibetans outside of that country. Serious efforts. It would be helpful with world opinion going into the Olympic celebration.



Impeach Bush.

 

overseas Chinese are reading news from Western media. so whatever the backlash, has nothing to do with the government. most of us don't even have access to Chinese TV stations.

 

So you say. I don't believe it, with all due respect.



Impeach the Stepford President.

 

i was talking to my cousins in China. she had no idea about what's going on outside. some of them don't even care. it's mostly overseas students posting stuff on the internet, and folks back home read them online. and what part of what i said don't you believe? i don't watch CCTV official propaganda. it's the most boring news ever.

 

That the Chinese government has nothing to do with it. I don't believe that.



Impeach the Stepford President.

 

so are you saying the government organized all these counter protests? it really is nationalism.

 

No, I didn't say they organized all the protests, and yes, it certainly is Chinese nationalism.



Impeach the Stepford President.

 

well, you can't really blame the government for this one. in fact, within the first week of protests within, they came out telling people not to protests. they were telling everyone it's irrational. i actually saw a video online about a policeman trying to convince this girl not to protest anymore. he was being very rational. government officials are some of the most rational folks in China at the moment.

 

I'm sorry, but I just burst out laughing when I read that. It's priceless! Needless to say, I don't agree. Carry on.



Impeach the Stepford President.

 

go ahead. that's a fact. most of these folks are career politicians. they don't let emotions get in their way. the reason they are the leaders right now is because they are not easily swayed by nationalism. i don't want a leader in place who is going to flare up irrational crap.

 

Don't forget there was also rationing during WWII and there was fuel rationing in the '70's. Heck Costco is rationing rice these days.

 

If I can back up Yuantian here for a moment from what I know of the PRC there is something to this. The PRC leadership understands nationalism is a double edged sword and while they encourage it and build it up they also know that nationalism could turn against them. Remember the 1989 protests started out as an expression of nationalism. Its very possible that a mass national movement could end up turrning against the CCP if such a movement also turns into a vehicle to express displeasure over economic disparity and pollution.

Another thing that I've heard about the PRC is that while economic success has bred an upwardly mobile class this group has lost its ideological and spiritual focus as the ideological underpinnings of Communism have been discredited yet there isn't something filling the vacuum. This is why the PRC is uneasy about religious movements like Falun Gong as such a movement could lead to a questioning of the materialistic values of the country and leadership. A nationalistic movement tied to a spiritual movement could end up being the end of PRC as it is.

 

the rice thing is just weird. the supply is all there. just the price went up. why would people horde rice? it ain't you like eat a bag of 50 lb. rice in a freak week. it last like months. so what it's 30 dollars instead of 20 dollars now.

 

Re: overseas chinese watching western media, yes that is the case

From what I know, only 30% of overseas chinese have satellite dishes and watches Chinese news straight from china, the rest watches what ever is on the TV