In a sense I think you are right. I didn't know the BBS could get so metaphysical. God is being itself. However, thus said he is outside of being as well, one of the great mysteries of God. Your signature suggests your some sort of Hegelian. Might I suggest you read Thomas Aquinas' Division of MEthods and Sciences? I think in that one work you will find the harmony you are looking for between faith and reason. However, one has to keep in mind the providence of God, that is not directly active in this world. This is not to say predestination, but rather we decide to participate in God's will or not, for me, the decision to take in and consume the Body and Blood of Christ. This is a strech for many, but it is one that must be made by faith.
Mr. Meowgi, I find it interesting that you keep accusing people of characterizing (personifying, etc.) God in a certain way as doing injustice to God's greatness while you are doing exactly the same thing.
I don't lose any sleep or anything over Robertson, he's just scary in that "if you don't live like I say so, you should burn in hell" kind of way. Imagine a millions upon millions of people thinking the same way?
It's not an accusation. I'm not blaming anybody. It is just what people do. Sometimes it is all we can do. But if we realize this - it's a start.
Dude, it's Greek. New Testament is in Greek. Let me just say to love God equates worshipping Him. And one cannot worship something you don't believe in. Worship is a choice, one athiests are very vocal about not participating in. In fact, worshipping nothing is inherent in athiesm. Love is not godly love unless it glorifies Him. That is why there are about six different terms for love in Greek, all with very different meanings. I'm not defending the Pat. I think he tries to depend too much on what humans can do and doesn't try to see circumstances in God's perspective. Yes, the Pat should be calling for prayers for the justices to acknowledge what God wants, not their demise. I agree with JuanValdez, though, the only message God has for the unsaved is for their salvation. Any other message would be meaningless without that relationship.
I find it interesting that people seem to be able to "know" what god wants or his motivation. God (if there is one) IMHO is so far beyond any of our consciousness that we have no way to fathom him/she/it.
Dude I don't think you are understanding what I was saying. In a way, the atheist indirectly believes in God. Sure, they could do better, but if you try to understand the common non-Nietzschian atheist you will see that they believe in love, in justice and truth, and since the Word is love and the Word is God, then in a way they are believeing in those things. They are in a sense baptised by desire for truth. Atheists are a hard breed so you can't really just charactarize them. However I am not talking about the denial of truth atheists because that denial in its self becomes a truth and defeats their whole argument. This is what makes the Nietzschian so tough to argue with, simply because they deny reason and they deny faith. To that, all one can do is walk away and pray for. But St. Thomas Aquinas says that the only people you can't argue with are the ones who will not admit any truth. The others (the atheists whom I speak of who are concerned with truth and love) can be reasoned with. Thats Question 98 of the Summa Theologica if you want to look it up. I have in mind this quote from the prayer of St. Francis, in which he says it is better to understand than to be understood. (I know this line contradicts the first line of my post but I'm no St. Francis) All I'm trying to do is understand the common non believing attitude and once that is done we can help show the light of Christ further to unbelievers in a more prudential way and then they can use their free will either to love God or not. Bottom line. Thats what we're here to do dude. I totally understand what you are saying but we have to work harder and more prudentially to lead all of our collective reasons to faith, to bring the two into harmony. Man my posts are long and boring, I doubt people even read half way through them because that is what my lazy butt does with posts that are long!
Grace. It permeates our existence and when we participate in it then we come into "knowing" God. God is the essence of a summer breeze yet is in no way that summer breeze. If you've had any philosophy of being classes, think of it as a mix of Aristotle's god and Plato's the Form of the good. Thinking is thinking Thinking.
Why do you have to show us anything? We don't go around trying to convince you to renounce your faith. Why do you feel the need to try to convince us to accept yours?
MRS. LANDIS: Of course, Jackie O. was a great lady. Those are going to be some tough shoes to fill. Everyone loved her. She had such...grace. ELAINE (gushing): Yes! Grace! MRS. LANDIS: Not many people have grace. ELAINE: Well, you know, grace is a tough one. I like to think I have a little grace...not as much as Jackie - MRS. LANDIS: You can't have "a little grace." You either have grace, or you...don't. ELAINE: O.K., fine, I have...no grace. MRS. LANDIS: And you can't acquire grace. ELAINE: Well, I have no intention of "getting" grace. MRS. LANDIS: Grace isn't something you can pick up at the market. ELAINE (fed up): Alright, alright, look - I don't have grace, I don't want grace...I don't even say grace, O.K.? MRS. LANDIS: Thank you for coming in. ELAINE: Yeah, yeah, right.
"God against man. Man against God. Man against Nature. Nature against man. Nature against God. God against Nature. Very funny religion!" - DT Suzuki
I'm liking you more and more Mr M. twhy77 I respect and admire your beliefs and conviction. I think it's wonderful that you are so sure and resolute. I mean that in the most sincere way. My beliefs are different. Would you grant the same to me?
What's wrong with trying to convince other people what you believe to be truth? Aren't you doing exactly that? When you ask people of faith to stop sharing their faith, you are asking them to renounce their faith because sharing their faith is an essential part of their faith. I hope this is not too confusing.
First off thank you. I would respect your beliefs that is for sure. However, I think there is a big difference between that and tolerance. Tolerance is this idea created by Spinoza basically to keep the peace. I think if you want true peace you have to struggle for the truth. I agree with this point from phenomonlogy, that there is absolute truth and just different perspectives of it, why you can view it in one way like truth and love or whatever your beliefs are and I can view it in another such as God and faith. I think it was Kierkegaard that first thought one out reasonably. I'm trying to show how as humans it is better to have sought for the truth then to have not. As long as truth seekers go along, we can be united by this cause. However, tolerance has us saying well the man who believes his mouse is the solar system and that if it continues to be grey than all of society will perish in eternal hellishness unless he can get one shot off at his wife; well you know I think someone has to just step in and tell him he's wrong. Something must be right in this world otherwise there ain't no point to living. I think both sides need to realize they both struggle for some sort of truth, whether they like it or not. That's all I'm trying to say man... I don't think its a case of pushing your beliefs on someone. *Warning this could get boring as hell if you aren't interested in politics and English* CAse in point. I did my first thesis on Shakespeare's The Tempest in RElation to the best regime of Aristotle. It was basically a study in the limits of politics. Well, Prospero, this grand artist, has this great power to greatly influence those on his island through his use of his magic, which my professor and I agreed could be called the spirit of freedom and poetry, Ariel. However, instead of using this forceful power to make everyone believe what he wants them to believe, Prospero instead drowns his staff upon his return to Milan. I argue that this drowning of his book and staff is a recognition of the freedom of the individual. Prospero knows that he must present the case to his subjects in favor of virtue and love, but that in the end it is only their decision that can come to love. I feel that I have to present the case for virtue and love as I see it, as I have been blessed to have been taught it, and it is only up to you to accept my rhetoric, or to deny it and move about on your merry way. However, I will not say that something I think is untrue is ok... just to be tolerant. However, I can not force you to believe what I say. That would take away your freedom. CApice?
What exactly am I trying to convince you of? That people deserve privacy and respect when it comes to their relationship with god?
I was working with this lady who had had severe arthritis for over a year. She could barely walk, was missing weeks of work at a time. One day at work she says to me, twhy77, your Catholic right? I answer, yeah wanna fight? She says no, no, I just wanted to ask a question, yes I answered, you seem to be a pretty faithful kid I was wondering what you think of this. Everynight I pray for a miracle, but I still wake up with arthritis, whats the deal with that? And I says to her, well, they teach us that no prayer goes unanswered, maybe the miracle is not that you will be healed physically, but that you will be healed spiritually, and be able to cope with whats happened and continue to love God and neighbor, she said, twhy77, thats a damn good answer. I agree in a sense with you Mr. Meowgi. We do not pray to God as the ancient Greeks do. That kind of thing doesn't really fly. You don't test God. It's not a case of I insert x number of prayers and y number of things happen. However, all prayers that come from the heart are answered, not just in a usual fashion. Now I know the argment against me, oh that is just the mind making rational things that are going around it, just telling it the things it needs to hear. To an extent maybe your right, but if that mind tells itself to align its thought with God's will, well then in a sense, the mind has the ability to come into contact with its true nature, which is given by God in the creation. In a sense, we look within to find the answers from without. Damn my posts keep getting longer and boringer. I need to work on my rhetoric to shorten it up a bit. MAybe take away this damn soapbox that keeps creeping under my computer. Go ROCKETS!!!
I believe that we are all wired together (by the collective unconscious) and that the closer we are to Him, the closer we will naturally be to each other. Makes perfect sense to me. I believe that the ultimate law in the universe is karma. No matter what religion you follow, it has karma embedded as a central theme (the Golden Rule for Christians, thrice good thrice bad for Wiccans, and straight up karma for Buddhists). Whatever you do in this life, you will have to pay for eventually. Part of that is the pain, guilt, shame, and regret experienced in this life and anything that isn't paid for in this life is carried on to the next one. On the flip side, if you build up positive karma, you end up with positive results.
