[Reuters] CIA Holds Top Al Qaeda Suspects in Jordan

Because certain principlas and values such as freedom, justice, etc. are worth dying for. I don't care who is being tortured. It isn't consistent with the principals of our country, and if we are fighting a war it should be over those principals.

Our founding fathers thought it was worth fighting and dying for their beliefs and principles, so do I.

Others are obviously willing to sell out cheap. I am not in that number.

People say that terrorists hate our way of life. Our way of life is based on ideals and values, and when we sacrifice those then it is a victory for the terrorists.

I hate terroris, and what the terrorists did on 9/11. I don't want to be a part of giving them a victory by abandoning our principles. I will stand up against that whether it's the terrorists causing it, or the misguided leadership of our own country.

My respect goes down a little for people who trumpet how great America is but then our among the first to abandon it's values and principles.

 

I was driving to work today and heard Alan Jackson's "Where Were You When The World Stopped Turning" I was like wow, I havent heard this in a long time. Then I listened to the words and I began to cry. I dont even think I cried this past anniversay of 9/11 but today it hit me hard again. Such a terrible day. So terrible that I dont care what they have to ****ing do to get this **** over with. I never ever ever want another 9/11. **** those guys, they have no rights.

 

I am in the number of people who want to do whatever it takes to prevent another terrorist attack on our soil.

What if we had captured Mohamad Atta before 9/11 and the only way we could have got info about the plan was to torture him? Sorry, but I would have been fine with that.

 

It's one thing to hedge occasionally on our principles and values to rise up against our enemy who flouts them continually. I admire your idealism, but I can't support it. This is survival. I have four children and grandchildren to come...

The enemy has abandoned our principles; we suspend them when and where necessary. Sad but true. Survival.

Better to be alive and real than dead and ideal.

 

Are people who put themselves outside the state system entitled to rights based on a state system?

 

Yes, because certain human rights are not dependent on membership in a "state system" or citizen rights. They are human rights. You only need to be human to qualify.

The right not to be tortured as a prisoner, especially not to force a confession, is a basic human right.

However, the dilemma - from my point of view - arises when you have a situation of imminent danger, a threat, and using tough interrogation methods may be the only way to prevent great harm to others.

Having thought about it, I think there must obviously be a limit to what can be done - but I think tough interrogation methods - which should never reach the level of torture - can in extreme situations be justified if (at least) the following requirements are met:

- there must be a situation of imminent danger
- there must be a high likelihood, based on factual evidence, that the specific detainee has information that could be vital to opening a course of action to deal with the source of the imminent danger
- subjecting the detainee to a situation where he might face tough interrogation methods (which need to be more clearly defined) such as having him questioned in a country where different standards might apply must be authorized by a federal judge (in order to prevent the executive branch from exceeding their competencies)
- even if a detainee is being questioned in a foreign country where different standards apply, the authorities of the country that is detaining the detainee must make sure that the line to torture is never crossed.

I would probably have to say that the first two requirements are met in the case of that Sheikh.

What would be "tough interrogation methods"...I would have to say that I, personally, would not have a problem with subjecting those guys to music they hate, to only offering them pork to eat, to waking them up frequently, etc. - even though I cringe when I type this. What can NEVER be acceptable is actual torture, by which I mean causing any kind of real physical harm, as it is done in some countries of the axis of evil.

I don't know...still have a hard time making up my mind on this. It's really a very difficult question.

 

So you could give them the option of starving to death or going to hell for eating pork? OK, but not bacon. Bacon is too good for them. Maybe like pig snouts or something.

 

That sounds like a good idea for a TV show:

Fear Factor for Terrorists!

 

It's not one thing to hedge on our principles. You say it's survival. I haven't seen where torture has prevented anything. I have seem examples where it's been used and failed, (France using torture in Algeria for instance).

But if it comes down to survival. Then I believe it's better to die holding on to your principles, than to live without them.

If imadrummer 2k or others would rather live without holding true to principles and values I accept that. I don't say that everyone should be forced to agree on what role values take. I'm just telling you my opinion.

I do think it's hypocrytical to go around and try and spread democratic American values to other nations at the barrel of a gun, when people here aren't willing to hold onto those values when push comes to shove.

The way to spread democracy is to support it's principles, and values, to be a shining beacon of freedom, human rights and justice.

I don't know what methods were used in Jordan on these guys so I can't say whether or not this fits the case. I do know that leaking the name of Al Qaeda informants who are working on you and getting regular e-mails regarding Al Qaeda's plans thus cutting off one of our best sources of info, is more dangerous to endangering our nation in regards to terrorists, than not torturing people.

It's also worth noting that the informant that was receiving the e-mails and providing the info to us was not tortured to get that information from him.

Hayes, I'm not sure if the rights of the state argument was directed at this particular aspect of the discussion or not, but I dont' necessarily feel that they should all receive constitutional rights. I just think that elements like torture should be left out regardless of what citizenship the prisoners hold.

 

The problem with torture, even in cases of immanent danger, is that it presupposes guilt without any due process.

Imagine yourself, pulled off the street and tortured for information you do not have. Would you feel the torturer is justified by his immanent danger?

Exactly the reason I supported the overthrow of Saddam and if it becomes the policy of the United States I'd support the overthrow of our government too.


And why is it the atheist on the board is the one that has to point out the total unacceptablility of torture? Don't you christians have a duty to turn the other cheek and love your enemy or something? Or is that just your Sunday lip service along with all the other christian tenets you choose to ignore?

 

True.

But notice that "tough interrogation methods" do not equal torture...I think there is a grey area there.

Also, you are only looking at it from the perspective of what happens to the detainee.

The issue we were talking about is if it can be mandated to deviate from due process in order to protect innocent third parties.

What is more important, making sure the detainee's due process rights are not violated or making sure that potentially thousands of lives of innocents are saved?

I don't want to be the one who has to make that call, to be honest.

 

That's a very honorable attitude.

To be concrete, what would constitute torture to you - at what point would you rather die than do something?

Would you already rather die than deprive Khalil Sheikh Mohammed of sleep once in a while an than subject him to Western music (let's say Aaron Carter or something)?

 

Here's another one: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

That should make it easier for you to define what is torture and what is interrogation. Come on down to the station and I'll start whacking you a little bit harder until you decide what the limit is.

 

Extended sleep deprivation would not be acceptable. Temporary sleep deprivation would be acceptable. Subjegating someone to horrible music would also be OK in my back to prevent another 9/11.

 

If I was a terrorist then I wouldn't have limits, right? So they should expect the same according to you. If I was a counterterrorism operative I certainly wouldn't expect quarter from terrorists, and would give none.

So let's have at 'em. Due process is exactly what I was getting at earlier. If you're not in the US, for example, you don't get due process guaranteed to those in the US by the Constitution. Why is 'due process' as vague as that is, a 'inalienable human right?' Does a terrorist have to be implicated by a jury of their terrorist peers? Or can someone on the spot make the decision? I agree that someone taken in a random street sweep should not be subjected to torture. However, being a known AQ member seems to be a different case altogether.

 

i like the cut of your jib.







what's a jib?

 

I agree with your take of his cut of his jib.


(stay away from sailboats! )



Keep D&D Civil!!

 

If they really want to torture them, let them watch the Astros bullpen.

DD

 

I do not have a problem or rather much problem with your take but I would like to know what you think about the secrecy of this operation (albeit alleged)? Do you think it is right for it to be a secret?

We only keep secret what we know is not right....right? That is our conscience judging us.

My mother always told me that that nothing good comes out from the things we do and conceive in secrecy.

So can someone explain the secrecy here for me?

 

That is truly very unamerican and sad to talk that way.

I will vener forget but common there is a reason why America has always been held at a higher moral level for decades now.

This kind of a mentality is nothing but a dangerous slipery slope. Unfortunately this is the same way the people on the other side of this battle feel too. Most of it immersed in ignorance, puerility and myopia.

Oh well...God help us.

War without end indeed.