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Republican Leaning Orlando Sentinel's endorsement for president in 2020: Not Donald Trump

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Deckard, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Recently, in another thread, a trump supporter asked me to say why I felt the way I do about Mr trump. I told him to read some of the dozens of posts I've made here spelling it out, even at least one in the same thread, and he chose to accuse me of "dodging" the discussion. I wasn't "dodging" anything, but just so he'll have a clear understanding of why a lot of folks here don't support Mr trump, here's as good an explanation of any I've read. It doesn't include every reason I would have for not supporting the man, but does include the vast majority of them.

    It's from the editorial board of The Orlando Sentinel, historically a Republican leaning newspaper. It is Orlando's major newspaper, with a long history in the city of being the local's major source of the news. By coincidence, Orlando is where Mr trump announced today that he is running in 2020 for a second term. The Sentinel chose the same day to print this:

    Our Orlando Sentinel endorsement for president in 2020: Not Donald Trump | Editorial

    Donald Trump is in Orlando to announce the kickoff of his re-election campaign.

    We’re here to announce our endorsement for president in 2020, or, at least, who we’re not endorsing: Donald Trump.

    Some readers will wonder how we could possibly eliminate a candidate so far before an election, and before knowing the identity of his opponent.

    Because there’s no point pretending we would ever recommend that readers vote for Trump.

    After 2½ years we’ve seen enough.

    Enough of the chaos, the division, the schoolyard insults, the self-aggrandizement, the corruption, and especially the lies.

    So many lies — from white lies to whoppers — told out of ignorance, laziness, recklessness, expediency or opportunity.

    Trump’s capacity for lying isn’t the surprise here, though the frequency is.

    It’s the tolerance so many Americans have for it.

    There was a time when even a single lie — a phony college degree, a bogus work history — would doom a politician’s career.

    Not so for Trump, who claimed in 2017 that he lost the popular vote because millions of people voted illegally (they didn’t). In 2018 he said North Korea was no longer a nuclear threat (it is). And in 2019 he said windmills cause cancer (they don’t). Just last week he claimed the media fabricated unfavorable results from his campaign’s internal polling (it didn’t).

    According to a Washington Post database, the president has tallied more than 10,000 lies since he took office.

    Trump’s successful assault on truth is the great casualty of this presidency, followed closely by his war on decency.

    Trump insults political opponents and national heroes alike with middle-school taunts. He demonstrates no capacity for empathy or remorse. He misuses his office to punish opponents, as when he recently called for a boycott of AT&T to get even with his least favorite media outlet, CNN. He tears down institutions, once airily suggesting the U.S. should try having a leader for life as China now allows. He seems incapable of learning a lesson, telling an ABC interviewer last week — just two months after Robert Mueller’s report on election interference was released — that he would accept dirt on an opponent from Russia or China.

    Trump has diminished our standing in the world. He reneges on deals, attacks allies and embraces enemies.

    This nation must never forget that humiliating public moment in Helsinki in 2018 when the president of the United States chose to accept Vladimir Putin’s denials of Russian interference in the 2016 election over the unanimous assessment of the American intelligence community.

    Such a betrayal by a U.S. president would have been the unforgivable political sin in normal times.

    As if that’s not enough, Trump declares his love for North Korea’s Kim Jong-un, a genuine villain who starves and enslaves his people and executes his enemies with antiaircraft guns and flamethrowers.

    But he wrote the president a “beautiful letter.” Flattery will get you everywhere with this president, and that’s dangerous.

    Domestically, the president’s signature issue — immigration — has moved in fits and starts. Happily, he abandoned pursuing an outright — and unconstitutional — ban on Muslims entering the U.S., opting instead to restrict travel for people from a handful of nations, most of them majority Muslim.

    He’s tried separating families, sending troops to the border and declaring a national emergency. For all of that, illegal border crossings are, as the president himself calls it, at crisis levels.

    He blames House Democrats because casting blame is Trump’s forte. But Republicans controlled the House and the Senate for two full years. That seemed like an ideal time to fix what the president believes ails our immigration laws.

    Even with Democrats now controlling the House, where is Trump’s much-touted deal-making mojo, an attribute he campaigned on?

    “But the economy!”

    Yes, the market has done well since Trump’s election.

    The S&P 500 was up about 21% between Trump’s inauguration and May 31 of his third year in office. Under President Obama, it was up about 56% in that same period.

    Unemployment is headed down, as it was during seven straight years under Obama.

    Wages are up, and that’s a welcome change. But GDP increases so far are no better than some periods under Obama. Deficit spending under Obama was far too high, in part because of the stimulus needed to dig out of the Great Recession. Under Trump, it’s still headed in the wrong direction, once again pushing $1 trillion even though the economy is healthy.

    Trump seems to care nothing about the deficit and the national debt, which once breathed life into the Tea Party.

    Through all of this, Trump’s base remains loyal. Sadly, the truest words Trump might ever have spoken was when he said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose his supporters.

    This non-endorsement isn’t defaulting to whomever the Democrats choose. This newspaper has a history of presidential appointments favoring Republicans starting in the mid-20th century. Except for Lyndon Johnson in 1964, the Sentinel backed Republican presidential nominees from 1952 through 2004, when we recommended John Kerry over another four years of George W. Bush.

    As recently as 2012 we recommended Republican Mitt Romney because of what seemed at the time to be Obama’s failure to adequately manage the nation’s finances.

    If — however unlikely — a Republican like Romney, now a senator from Utah, or former Ohio Gov. John Kasich successfully primaried the president, we would eagerly give them a look. Same if an independent candidate mounted a legitimate campaign.

    We’d even consider backing Trump if, say, he found the proverbial cure for cancer or — about as likely — changed the essence of who he is (he won’t).

    The nation must endure another 1½ years of Trump. But it needn’t suffer another four beyond that.

    We can do better. We have to do better.

    www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/editorials/os-op-sentinel-not-endorsing-donald-trump


    Discuss.

     
  2. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    This isn't a left-wing media outlet. The endorsement makes sense and is well reasoned. It is backed by facts about Donald Trump. All of those things are reasons that it will be dismissed by Trump's supporters.
     
    arno_ed and Deckard like this.
  3. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    This is exactly the kind of news they should be reading and believing. As you said, and as I said in the thread title and my OP, it is historically a Republican leaning newspaper that has very rarely endorsed a Democrat running for president. I would love to read honest reactions by members I respect, like @Os Trigonum and, yes, despite his unfair characterization of me, @dachuda86.

    I've said this before on several occasions over the years, but I'll say it again. I have several Republican friends. I play trivia every week with 2 of them here in Austin and have for 10 years (our team wins very often!) One's a retired surgeon and we love getting any question remotely related to medicine, science, or that has Latin in there somewhere, and the other is retired after decades with Austin's electrical utility. He loves to play golf, graduated from UT, and is our golf, NFL, and college sports guy. I'm, of course, our NBA guy, along with anything related to history, geography, technology, or fantasy and science fiction. I'm also pretty good with movies and "classic rock." ;-)

    My point is that I have no personal agenda against Republicans. Not against those Republicans who post in D&D, the rare ones who will admit to being Republican (It's fashionable today to claim you're "independent" or libertarian, or anything else not spelled GOP), even if it's how they almost always vote. Same with those who almost always vote Democratic but, unlike myself, won't admit to being one. I don't care. I enjoy honest discussions, and those seem to be rare these days in D&D. It's really a bummer. We have a lot of trolls who post for their own amusement, though. I won't say who they are. They know who they are.
     
  4. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Good bye subscriptions.

    Get woke, go broke baby.
     
  5. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    I think you are referencing me so I am responding as though you are, but if not I apologize.

    I asked you how democracy was undermined and you never answered it, and you just said go read my other posts. That's dodging. And I'm not a Trump supporter. I haven't even been given the Democratic nominee to make a choice off of. I can't take you seriously because you then accused me of being dishonest when all I did was ask you a question. So here you are, misrepresenting things. Who is the dishonest person?

    I think you just didn't feel like putting some thought into a reply, lazily said you've covered it, and then wanted me to drop it. But you didn't have to call me dishonest. All I did was ask you a question because I really don't feel democracy has been or will be undermined by anything Donald Trump has done. We still have a great electoral system and I have confidence that even if Russia or China "interfered", which let's be honest a lot of countries interfere in different ways, the American people will be able to make their choice and vote. Democracy isn't collapsing and no one is "hacking" elections. If any information given to the public, if true, actually helps voters make a better choice. It also helps hold officials accountable. Shedding light on someone's activities isn't always a bad thing and I'm not willing to shoot the messenger so fast. I am an optimist about this though. You however have a different opinion and I genuinely wanted to hear why you think that is that case.

    I can actually think of a few ways though that foreign information could undermine democracy but it involves very specific details and actions. None of which have been shown to have happened. I just wanted to see if you had something to offer beyond saying the sky of our democracy is falling.
     
    #5 dachuda86, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  6. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    I'm just wondering why anyone who voted for Trump the first time around wouldn't vote for him the second time around?
    He is doing exactly what he said he is doing. I just don't see anything different. Like before these aren't Americans that are
    on twitter, on polls or share their ideas loudly. They're quiet but they'll come out and vote on election day.

    Lot's of people feel the economy and job market are giving them more opportunities which may add to his chances.

    If the democrats choose to run a communist or a Boston liberal they will get trounced again.

    Joe Biden could put up a good fight, though I don't know if he is mentally or physically really in this. He also has a history of
    doing and saying goofy things that could knock him out of this. Also is he really going to get the millennials out to vote??
    Doubt it.
     
    Astrodome likes this.
  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Communist?

    Name the DNC candidate that is advocating for the government ownership of Exxon Mobile and Ford Motor Company.
     
  8. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    It really doesn't give voters more information when the "information" given is stolen correspondences on one side of the political isle slowly purposefully being dripped throughout a campaign with snippets and sensationalized commentary that leads to things like pizzagate.

    The fact that you don't see how this is considered disinformation, shows how successful their propaganda was.

    Also, Russian interference went far beyond leaking of the emails and social media memes. Pro Donald Trump rallies and events were started all across the nation by Russian assets.
     
  9. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Prove that such a thing affected the election by any measurable means. This is just more sour grapes.
     
  10. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    There obviously is no tangible way to measure its effectiveness other than we have the Donald as president. Did the slow trickle of stolen private correspondences during the campaign have an effect? Maybe. It seemed like it as it was top news on every right wing social media account and publication. I'm stating what happened. How it effected voters, especially the elderly who are easily dupped to online propaganda is undetermined.
     
  11. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    Bernie Sanders is as much a communist as David Duke is a white supremisist.

    They may have nicer words and less vitriol but it doesn't change them.
     
  12. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Just deal with the fact that it didn't go your way and you can try again in 2020. Bad luck mate. Don't be a sore loser. Be proactive.
     
  13. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Okay I'll deal with it by posting my thoughts about it here.
     
  14. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    No because believing that black people are inferior with a suit and tie is different than not advocating a central part of communist ideology which is the compete government ownership of all capital with no private ownership. A very lazy argument.

    Your right wing narrative of calling any economic policy you disagree with as communist is only accomplishing losing the true meaning behind the term.
     
  15. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    This is a terrible comparison... David Duke is honest about being evil. Bernie hides his true colors behind sunshine, rainbows, and free ice cream.
     
  16. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Bernie doesn't hide anything. He's an idealist,s that many criticze him for as many percieve his policy ideas as unpragmatic. The fact that you believe Bernie has alterior motives shows how out of touch you are in this discussion.

    With Bernie, you know what he says is sincere and genuine.
     
  17. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    I threw up a little in my own mouth reading the last part... geez write him a love sonnet already.
     
  18. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    The fact that you think that is a compliment about Bernie shows that you pretty much are absent in all the actual policy discussions we have here. I've explicitly stated that im not a Bernie supporter and feel as if he is too much of a niave idealist who just touts platitudes. He's a simple man who is an idealist. There is nothing more to him.
     
  19. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Wait, stop the presses. You're not a Bernie supporter? Friend, you just defended him. It doesn't matter if you stated you don't support him. You are a Bernie supporter by your own logic. According to you, since I defended Trump, I'm a Trump supporter even though I have many times here said otherwise. This is your own reasoning, so surely you must be mistaken about this.
     
    Os Trigonum and Astrodome like this.
  20. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    If I defended him on a daily basis multiple times a day and even defended him on reprehensible a rooms, then yes you should call me his supporter. But I don't.

    You are trying to hard to trip me up. It should come naturally.
     
    #20 fchowd0311, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019

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