Representation without Taxation: Should the poor be allowed to vote?

I agree, it's entitlement programs in general that have bankrupted us, not "the poor".

Would you not agree a majority of moochers voting themselves more and more benefits would end in default ala Greece? How can you say this won't happen here when we are on the same mathematical trajectory?

Subsidies or tax write-offs (not the same thing)? Are they unique to the oil industry?

If you want to abolish the tax code I'm with you, but I never hear this advocated by the left. They're all about picking winners and losers with the tax code, as long as it's the one's they prefer.

Government contracts are a fee for service provided, not a subsidy. In this case, for a constitutionally mandated function, defense. I for one am happy to pay for the F-35 if it means we have a superior air fleet to the Chinese. That's a fundamental national security requirement.

I never said that.

 

No, it isn't.

You've been sold the idea that unfettered capitalism is somehow "rational" - but, ultimately, the only foundation for its supposed powers is based purely on faith. There's never been an adequate exploration of the idea, and economic systems that have come close to unfettered capitalism have always deteriorated into a social situation with massive differentials between people that are, more often than not, inherently anti-democratic and oligarchic.

It's not rational. It's just as faith-based as any religion, and just as impossible to verify through actual experience.

 

At this point it's all been talk of austerity, no action.

Expansion of entitlements is not necessary for us to become Greece. The current levels will get us there.

http://budget.house.gov/GraphsandCharts/fy2012charts.htm

A resistance to entitlement reform has proven quite true. There's a reason Social Security is called the third rail. And I never said that resistance comes from the poor, but it does come from those receiving the entitlements.

Sure we have, we're on the same path, we just haven't reached our credit limit yet. I would agree there seems to be more willingness to reform here in the USA than in Greece.

If your talking purely monetary benefit, that's probably not true and definitely not sustainable (can't keep taking out more than you put in).

But it's not unfounded, it's an actuarial fact that we pay out more than we put in. There's no personal incentive to care about this if you are a net taker.

 

I'm shocked that there are people who can look at that graph, look at its conclusions, and not conclude that that graph is inherently absurd. I mean, extrapolation - not to mention do you REALLY think debt would jump to eight times what it was WW2? Really?

I mean, off the top of my head, one of the major problems with SS is the large amount of retiring Baby Boomers and that drain it represents on the US economy. I somehow suspect that the Baby Boomers will be generally dead by 2080.

Besides, debating whether SS should be reformed is one thing ( and one thing I do agree on). You're arguing that anyone who USES SS shouldn't be allowed to vote, as they're moochers.

So I'll go ahead and ask again: who aren't the moochers? How do you ensure that those people don't vote, and only True Productive Americans have that right? I mean, do you really not see the giant potential for abuse in such an idea?

 

My kids, grand kids... should be able to vote. They will be the ones paying for this debt.

 

I think some of our more patriotic posters have hit on nearly all of these bench marks:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4. Supremacy of the Military
5. Rampant Sexism
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
9. Corporate Power is Protected
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

 

thats why i favor a basic citizenship test before voting.

it has nothing to do w/ how rich or poor you are or the color of your skin - its about demonstrating a basic level of knowledge on government and civics. if you never took the time to learn something as simple as the 3 branches of government than you are willfully ignorant and have no business being involved in the voting process.

 

in that case you arent even qualified to vote for your block captain!

78745 RULES!!!

 

I don't believe you have a right to vote if you didn't study Plato, Socrates, Thomas Aquinas, Magna Carta, etc. as these are foundations of the constitution. If you haven't studied these things well then you are willfully ignorant.

 

Does Paris Hilton get to vote? She mooches off of her father's money, but isn't a government moocher. Where does she fit into this whole scheme.

 

trust fund babies are destroying America

 

You are SO right... That is why I believe shareholders in oil companies and companies that get huge government contracts should not be allowed to vote.... We have to make a stand, they are sucking us dry and pushing for tax breaks for the wealthy, and support multi front wars.

 

It may have already been referenced but is worth repeating because Clinton nails it...

Bill Clinton Compares New Voting Laws to Jim Crow

By: CNN Associate Producer Gabriella Schwarz

Washington (CNN) – Former President Bill Clinton compared efforts by Republicans to change voting laws across the country to Jim Crow laws and poll taxes that historically disenfranchised African American voters.

Speaking before a group of liberal youth activists Wednesday, Clinton said laws in states like Florida and New Hampshire are aimed at limiting voter turnout and keeping young people from the ballot box.

"There has never been in my lifetime, since we got rid of the poll tax and all the voter Jim Crow burdens on voting, the determined effort to limit a franchise that we see today," Clinton said at Campus Progress's annual conference in Washington.

Jim Crow laws, enacted between 1876 and 1965, included fees and laws historically used to keep African-Americans from voting. Clinton said Republican governors and legislators are now trying to "keep most of you [young people] from voting next time."

"They [Republicans] are trying to make the 2012 electorate look more like the 2010 electorate than the 2008 electorate," Clinton added, referencing the dip in youth voter turnout in the 2010 elections. "Are you fighting? You should be fighting it."

Younger voters turned out at historic levels during the 2008 election helping propel Obama to the White House, but dropped off considerably in 2010.

Clinton was critical of regulations preventing same-day registration and specifically referenced Republican Florida Gov. Rick Scott's move in March to overturn a law that allowed convicted felons to vote after they completed their probation.

"Why should we disenfranchise people forever once they've paid their price?" Clinton said. "Because most of them in Florida were African Americans and Hispanics and would tend to vote for Democrats, that's why."

He also referred to a proposal in New Hampshire that would prevent college students from registering to vote where they attend school, instead of where they are from originally.

Democratic Committee Chairman Debbie Wasserman Schultz made similar comments in June, calling attention to the Sunshine State effort. The Florida congresswoman told CNN contributor Roland Martin Republicans "want to literally drag us all the way back to Jim Crow laws" and block Democratic voters from the polls.

Schultz later said "Jim Crow was the wrong analogy to use."

Chris Jankowski, president of the Republican State Leadership Committee, said Clinton was using Schutlz's talking and points “owes an apology to Republican legislators that are seeking sensible steps to protect the integrity of elections in our country.”

“Maybe it was an attempt to distract from the Democrats’ abysmal record of tax hikes and shutdowns over spending cuts, or perhaps he was simply trying to be provocative while speaking to a super-liberal audience,” Jankowski said in a statement. “Either way, such rhetoric is out of bounds.”

– CNN's Rebecca Stewart contributed to this report.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/06/bill-clinton-on-todays-jim-crow/