Shanna: You're right, there ARE tensions between #'s 1,2 and 5 and affirmative action. I'm a liberal, but I oppose affirmative action as it currently is enacted as well. Instead, I would support progressive aid to underpriviledged school districts, free public colleges, jobs programs, free day care, etc. I think that poverty is the real problem, not mistakes made long ago. Most government studies have found that there is VERY LITTLE real discrimination in the work place. Most of it is accidental, now... and more in tune with class, not race. I simply can't acknowledge that race is a valid legal category. It's just too arbitrary. ------------------ Boston College - Big East -East Division Regular Season Champs Worst to First in 2001! [This message has been edited by haven (edited March 26, 2001).]
DREAMer, that's a pretty racist comment to make. Perhaps you haven't been around too many white people because the vast majority that I've known have never used a racial slur. ------------------ www.swirve.com...The reason Al Gore invented the internet.
hhhhhmmmmm Let's see . . If I kidnapp you Make you work and earn me millions Then Kill you. . .. leave the money to my son and die . .. Leaving your son impoverished and discriminated against and with less life chances My son owes your son nothing So . . . I should kidnapp bill Gates make him turn over his money to me. .. Kill him and then my self and leave a will that states the money goes to my family and my son . . . then it is all good. . . be cause my son would owe his son and family nothing because my son did nothing wrong? sound logic in amerikkka loose translation of most arguments boils down to 'Those n*gg*s wouldn't use the money right anyway' BTW the Jews are suing the swiss for money and art stolen by the germans . . . . what did the swiss do *directly* to the jews? THE current govt may not have had slaves but D*MN THE BENEFIT IT VERY WELL!!! Dreamer: For the record, is your wife against reparations as well [I'm curious] Rocket River ------------------
What a sound analogy. So all the wealth created from the earliest days of colonization through 1865 was pre-existent in Africa and stolen from slaves...? That seems to be what you're implying. I mean, Gates created his own wealth. You had nothing to do with it. That's a far cry from the way wealth was created by the agricultural industry in antebellum America. I mean I hate to break it to you, but slaveowners didn't go from toothless rednecks to rich plantation owners magically just by buying a handful of slaves. There was an investment of intellect and capital involved as well. As for the kidnapping part, you might want to do a little research into who was kidnapping Africans and selling them into bondage. Oh, and if you're going to put words in our mouths, let me put some in yours: Loose translation of most arguments in favor boils down to 'Gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. I live in a country where I'm privileged with one of the highest standards of living in the world. But because ancestors of mine were slaves 140 years ago, I am entitled to some of the money that you and the rest of the people in this country who are a different color than me work for. It doesn't matter if your ancestors fought for or against slavery, and it doesn't matter it your ancestors even OWNED any slaves. Gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme.' The argument's not that you wouldn't use the money right. It's that you've got no right to my money in the first ****ing place. [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited March 27, 2001).]
Both of your analogies are terrible River. By the way, the Swiss government allowed Nazis to place money (which had been stolen from germans including jews) and refused to return the money to the people the nazis had stolen it from earlier. ------------------
Rocketman95, I truly believe that is because you are not as sensitive to hearing them as I am. And it's not racist. I am telling you what I have seen. And, I have seen people who "claim" not to be racially biased, BE biased against other ethnic groups. They may not realize it, or maybe they do, I don't care. It doesn't change the fact that they do what they do. Where I work (a restaurant) being a black customer is almost a guarantee not to get the same service as a white customer. The same is true for just about every minority, but more so for blacks. I say 'more so' because some of the Latinos who work there are biased, some of the homosexuals who work there are biased, the women are biased, the men are biased, the cooks are biased, the managers. I'm not kidding. I say almost because I have closely watched who does and who does not discriminate or at least complain about minorities, and there are a few who don't (But, the majority do). The same was true in the last restaurant (A Pappas-owned restaurant) I worked at for four years. When I worked at the Post Oak YMCA, the managers implemented a system to check for member IDs when someone entered the basketball gym. Nothing wrong with this is there? Not really. Not until they only use it when they notice a high number of blacks in the gym. I used the analogy of a oil dipstick in a car. They stuck it in the gym, and if it was too black, they told me to check member IDs. Sure, many of the black guys were not members, but there were days when people of other ethnicities were in the gym who were not members, but our "ID check" was not enforced. This isn't something I saw once or twice and came to some rash judgement. This was something I was weery of from the beginning and carefully monitered when they implemented the ID check and when they did not. The simple truth is, when they saw what they felt to be too many blacks, they checked. One time I told a black member there my theory and asked him to look into it. He got a lot of the black members (and they were members) to come in at the same time one day, and lo and behold I was sent in there to check IDs, even though there were no non-members (no blacks at least) in there. My best friend of TEN years became a non-friend, and non-associate after I had been dating my girlfriend for some time. He kept saying the "N-word". He said it a couple of times, and I talked to him about it each time. Finally, one day we're shooting hoops in the driveway and a pizza delivery guy drives by who happened to be black. If I remember correctly, I think I had ordered the pizza, but the guy drove right past us. I say something about the guy missing us, and my (ex)friend says something like, "Yeah, stupid N*gger". I just shook my head and went inside, and that was the end of that ten-year friendship. I've even (maybe subconsciously) not associated with past friends as much, just because I didn't want to give them the opportunity to show their stupidity. Maybe that's prejudging, but I'd rather keep my fond memories instead of having to reasses why I was friends with that person in the first place. --------------------- RocketRiver, Yes, she is against reparations. -------------------- Juan Valdez, I think he (RocketRiver) wanted to know her opinion because she's black. Isn't that something you want to know? I want to ask as many black people as I can, though I won't in order to keep the chances of an argument from arising. I mean, she is black, and we are talking about reparations for blacks, so it seems to me that "yes" her opinion is relevant. Of course, there will be some blacks who discount her opinion because of who she's married to, but you know what? I'll ask some of the black people I know and see what they say, then get back to you. Also, I don't think it's her "color" that's relevant. I think it's her race. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
I have been around all kinds of racial slurs. I have been called things used to negatively describe whites, and I have been called the dreaded n-word (thanks for censoring that!) First time I was in a white-dominated social structure was in college. It made me uncomfortable. There were a lot of racist-type statements. I remember sitting at a table in the cafeteria when there was another table nearby of blacks. Well, due to the hostile environment, the blacks were intentionally acting more "black" so there were all sorts of comments and looks being made by the surrounding tables (by whites). I just smiled. I would fight back by wearing my "Whitey will pay" t-shirt. Always got horrified looks from whites and big smiles from blacks. Huh? What was the point of this? Oh yeah...white people suck. I feel more comfortable when there are fewer whites and more "ethnics." Hee hee. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
True IMO most white folx would be happy if we all got collective Amnesia and forgot about Slavery they don't even feel the need to apologize for it HELL MOST THINK . . . HEY IT WAS GOOD FOR YOU !!! I mean hell . . .400 years of slavery and mistreatment it is nothing. . . NOTHING . . . as far as some are concerned.. . Why the hell do black folx talk about it at all they are in the Great Amerikkka. . .. you n*ggas should be greatful . . could be starving in Africa. [I HAVE HEARD THIS BEFORE!!!] It amazed me. . . should be grateful for slavery for Jim Crow Laws For 2nd class citizenship For being killed for . . well d*mn near anything [Candy bar in the pocket. . *BAM* Cell Phone *BAM* Orange Juice *BAM* Walking down the street *BAM* Reckless Eyeballing *BAM*] I feel so lucky . . . . I'm allowed to live and post on this board [which if I keep 'actin' up may not be long] just make sure I mind my Ps and Qs and remember to tell everyone that Racism Does not exist nor ever existed. and if it exist . . .well it ain't worth getting upset over. . . MUCH LESS MONEY!!!! Rocket River ------------------
RocketRiver, I see this is a pretty intense topic for you. Do me a favor though, go back to my original post and tell me how those four items I listed as reasons against reparations affect your opinion. I only ask because so far you seem to be the only one in here "for" reparations, and I want to be able to discuss it with both sides of the argument. Also, I think your Bill Gates analogy is a good one. Not exactly flawless, but it does make a point. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
rim, So, what the hell are you? When I first started noticing you on the board, I had a feeling you were black, but a few months (or weeks) ago I thought you said something that led me to believe you are white.... I am now guessing that you might have "racially diverse" parentage... But, I am more confused as ever. I don't know why I want to know. I think there's some genetic trait I have that makes me want to know everything (seriously). It's not just on this subject. I am always trying to figure things out and I'm one curious mofo. Truth is, so do I. I think it's more because when I'm around an all white crowd, I'm tense because I'm just waiting for someone to say something racist that will piss me off. When I'm around minorities, I guess I let my guard down, so I'm not nearly as tense. ------------------------------ BK, I don't think he's putting words in anyone's mouth. I've heard people say that, and I guess he has too. Maybe RR should have said "some" instead of "most", but he sure didn't say "all". We (as a country) had no right to slaves, but we got them anyway. I think descendants of slaves have more of a "right" to "our" money, then we did to getting slaves. I am with you as far as being against reparations, but just saying "NO" because blacks don't have a "right" isn't a very sound argument. ------------------------------ Hydra, So, are you saying neither you nor a black person hasn't felt the ramifications of African slavery in our country? Hope not. I don't think we're talking about every white person apologizing to every black person they see. I think it's about the government apologizing for something it did (that was wrong) to help it get where it is today. I don't think it's a "grudge". I think it's more about righting a wrong. Sure, there are those who do hold grudges (multigenerationally), but are you saying that there aren't whites that do the very same thing? Just the inflamatory statement those on the anti-reparation stance don't need. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 28, 2001).]
DREAMer, Glad to have caused some confusion! My purpose in life is to not be clear. I was born a poor black boy...who happens to be white. Both of my parents are lily white(but not racist)...my extended family are racist bastards. I have disowned them (not just for that reason). Had both my grandfathers been alive, they would have disowned me for marrying a non-white. I just grew up in the ghetto. The white people I was aroud were mostly hicks and PWT...so not much in common. In middle school my best friend was black (until he moved away) I dated black, hispanic, indian, asian, and white while growing up. I have just always been sensitive to race. I hate this counry for it. Sure, some of my hate is fabricated, but it still means something. If I could be black, I would...just so I could beat down some whities who tried to oppress me! ------------------ Whitey will pay.
I am so sorry I enslaved you RR. Oh wait, I forgot, I NEVER OWNED A SLAVE AND YOU NEVER WERE A SLAVE. If you think everyone should have to apologize for the actions of their ancestors then the world would be nothing but people apologizing. No one is perfect. I have done enough to apologize for in my own life without adding in everything that all of my ancestors have done. I would never tell someone who was a slave to just get over it. But guess what, there is no one alive that was a slave in America. I think multigenerational grudge holding is one of the biggest problems in the world. It makes two people who have not done anything to each other into enemies. So, in closing, get over it. ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com
This Country Owes African Americans!!! Blacks shed blood, sweat, and tears baking those summer, Southern fields so Whitey could live all nice and comfortable up in his plantation!!! We owe them!!! All you former black slaves, come forward and take what yours!!! ------------------ Hey now, Hey now, don't Dream it's over...
DREAMer, My apology line was directed at Rocket River who wrote this: And as for the just get over it part that was a joke because he said that white people wish that black Americans would forget about slavery or get over it. That is why I used the smiley. If you notice earlier in the post I said I wouldn't tell people to just get over it. Maybe I was unclear in saying I wouldn't tell a former slave that. I would not tell anyone to forget the past or get over it. I am only saying there is no point in blaming people who were not alive during slavery. I cannot end slavery, nor can anyone else. It was already ended about 150 years ago. The most one could hope for is for the people now not to be racist, but that really has to come from both sides. The wrong cannot be righted, because it is unfair to punish someone for something that they did not do. While someone receiving the money could perceive it as righting a wrong, people on the other end could see it as a new injustice and it would perpetuate the cycle. Finally, I was not just refering to African Americans in reference to multigenerational grudge holding. That also applies to just about every group in the world. I think that this is one of the foundations of prejudice, along with ignorance. ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com [This message has been edited by Hydra (edited March 29, 2001).]
I'm curious, what does everyone think about reparations paid to the Japanese survivors of internment camps during WWII? Despite my piss-poor attempt at sarcasm, I'm anti-reparations but this is an argument I always see brought up by pro-reppers. Anyways, discuss amongst yourself. ------------------ Hey now, Hey now, don't Dream it's over...
The difference is that you can directly pay survivors of the internment camps, whereas who do you pay the reperations to concerning slavery? All black people? Or do you require some sort of proof that their ancestors were slaves? and what kind of proof? And who do you get the reparations from? The governement? Cause the money from the government would come from tax dollars, some of which would be from black people, along with money from other minorities that can't be held responsible for this. So do you take the money from white people? What about white people who's ancestors had no connection with the slave trade? And how do you determine that? And what about other ethnic groups? Everyone is probably a member of an ethnic group that has at one point been wronged terribly, where do you draw the line as to how far back it goes? ------------------ Founder and President of the Houston Homers Club(HHC) - Are you a homer? Join now! The Rockets will be NBA champions. Believe.
I think im in the majority when i say, round one goes to BrianKagy with a vicious chokeslam. ------------------ The next time I have meat and mashed potatoes, I think I'll put a very large blob of potatoes on my plate with just a little piece of meat. And if someone asks me why i didn't get more meat, ill just say, "Oh, you mean this?" and pull out a big piece of meat from inside the blob of potatoes, where ive hidden it. Good magic trick, huh?
River, the Moors ruled Western Europe for 800 or so years. 800 is > ~250 years, so in fact people of African descent (hey wait, that's everyone) actually owe people of European descent (also people of African descent... I'm getting confused). So in essence, since people of African descent (we'll call these people 'melanin challenged') were enslaved by other people of African descent, the first party of African de... are you getting this down? To make a long story short, I'll take a pint of Chubby Hubby for my reparations. ------------------ (===)
