Remember when some of y'all wanted Andre Miller over Franchise ...

Oh i hat the Jazz just as much as the next Rockets fan, but one of the reasons i do is they turn underachievers and garbage players in to something like God's gift of a basketball player cough..Harpring..cough.

 

Um, Sane your count is a tad off. IF the Rockets make the playoffs this year, Francis will be 1 for 4 not 1 for 3. Steve Francis did not win 45 games his first yr, it was his second year. Francis's rookie season, the team won 35-37 games and were picking 9th overall (the year they traded down and drafted Collier). The following season, the team won 45 games and drafted Griffin by trading up. Last season was the 28 win debacle which allowed this team to luck into drafting Yao. Francis has missed the playoffs THREE straight times. If the Rockets make it this yr, it will be 1 of 4, if they miss it will be 0 for 4; there is no 1 of 3 in this.

 

If you think that Francis is a loser you really shouldn't be taking the time out of your day to post here, you don't know jack. Making the playoffs isn't the barometer to use in determining winners/losers, it is how you play and conduct yourself. Was Hakeem a loser on his way out? Was Charles a loser? Steve Francis has been an allstar 2/4 years of his career. Considering the fact that many Rockets fans apparently dont think he is that good means that a lot of other fans appreciate waht we have in Steve Francis. Screw you Yetti!

 

MManal,

You're absolutely right and thanks for pointing all that out.

My basic point is that Andre Miller hasn't had a winning season yet, and Francis has had 2. Last year, pre-injuries, there was a good chance of making the playoffs and if not, we could at least achieve .500. This year, we're on pace for 7 more wins and 44 total wins.

Also, this Kobe without Shaq comparison is a horrible example. You can't just remove someone from the team and when the team loses, you say Kobe's not a winner. Kobe is a winner. But he didn't win in those games without Shaq because Shaq is essential to winning. To replace Shaq with an AVERAGE NBA Center and then judge the record would be more accurate.

I'm saying, Steve Francis knows how to win. Of course, you may or may not disagree. But after this season, he'll have had 2 seasons with 44+ wins and 2 seasons absolutely riddled with injuries. In big games, you can't miss him. Game winnign shot? he'll take it along with the consequences. Satisfied with money? highlights? No Way. Every word that comes out of his mout just OOZES "I just want to win".

To me, that's a winner. Who knows. We may be wrong about Andre Miller. But we know that he's not as good as Steve and was unable to carry his team along with Brand, Maggette, Piatowski, Q Richardson, and Kandi at times to even a few games under .500. So far, he has failed in trying to win, and every team he's been with has tried to give him away.

 

There is more to winning than having good players. The whole Clipper organization is warped. Every player knows that the team is the hell of NBA. Everyone dreads to be traded to or drafted by the Clippers. They just buy their time and leave. The Grizzlies used to be the same way too.

 

so...i guess mike bibby was a bonafied "loser" until he came to sacramento, right?


the truth is that it takes a good team and a good organization to win, and andre miller has never had either of those.


as for steve francis, he is a winner by default of his enormous talent and work ethic. however, the jury is still out on his "elite player" status. if you ask me, he's a winner and elite player in the vince carter sort of way: extremely talented, but not talented enough to single handedly carry a team deep into the playoffs....aka: second fiddle player on a great team.

other players in that group include:

1) kevin garnett
2) antoine walker
3) paul pierce
4) kobe bryant

there's no shame being in that group, at all. but those players (steve included) absolutely must have a strong co-leader (or an outright superior leader) in order to have a chance of winning a championship...preferably a big man...

this, of course, is why yao ming is so important. an elite post player, combined with a near elite supporting star is the base for a championship team. if you add a great organization and a great supporting cast to the mix, you're looking at a dynasty...which is why every opposing teams' commentators speculate that the rockets will be the nba's next dynasty in the near future...

 

I have advocated dangling Stevie for Miller to get Brand along with Andre (say if we also had given up KT or EG). There is no comparison between Miller and Steve as a talent or individual ball player.

I have been impressed with how Steve has been leading the team the last few weeks however. Make no mistake he is better and more valuable individual player than Miller, or Brand, for that matter.

 

Thanks for ratting me out man !!!



I did say, that I would rather have Miller at the PG position then Francis, I still think Miller is a better PG then Steve.

However, I believe I wanted to trade Cuttino for Miller and move Steve to the 2 guard.

That being said.....Steve has been making some very significant progress as a PG, especially under Larry Smith.

I like what I see, and will happily admit I am wrong..

Steve > Miller

Happy?



DD

 

Your listing of KG as a "second fiddle on a great team" causes your post to lose all of its credibility.

 

I agree that Steve Francis is a winner. I just feel the players around him and Yao need to change. I have a lot of respect for Francis's work ethic, determination, heart, etc. and thus would not trade him unless Duncan, KG, Kobe, Kidd etc were on the other side of the transaction. Despite Francis's improved play of late ie less turnovers, I still think he needs a complement to help him run the offense as opposed to a shot jacker like Mobley.

 

There is something as mediocre winners. I mean those who wins over the bad but can't make it to the top. Let's face it, Francis is a very talented guard, but a team with him being the best player will never go far in the playoffs.

 

I think most people wanted Miller over Francis based on stats. If I didn't have the "luxury(pain)" of living in LA and really seeing Miller's game than I may have given Miller just about the same credit as Francis as a PG star, after all he's top assister. But after this season I can see that Miller is not a Leader and what I mean is that he doesn't try to take over a game by calling out teamates or chosing better decision making plays. He's not vocal at all and doesn't seem to have much heart. At times he doesn't even look like he wants to improve the team but only his own stats. As for his shot he's not very good at finishing at the rim and his outside shot is not dependable in the clutch at all. I am disappointed in his play here, it looks like he was much hyped in Cleaveland, no wonder they didn't want to sign him.

 

Steve is better than Miller. This is not a real issue.

Here's how I look at the overall issue (like others):

Miller/Francis >Francis/Mobley >Miller/Mobley

 

Oh, the possibilities. Yeah, Stevie would've been .500+ last season if not for all his injuries.

 

wizkid83:


so, you think kg is on a great team now?

or, better yet, tell me what it would take to make them (the t-wolves) a great team, other than adding an equally prolific player?

tell me...so i can regain your coveted respect and reclaim my "credibility"...

as is, the wolves supporting cast is not terrible. troy hudson is a good, scoring point guard. wally world is a bonified scorer. marc jackson is a serviceable center. so is nesterovic.

still, kg has NEVER gotten out of the first round. in fact, he's never even come close.... maybe elite players can do that in your book, but they don't in mine. elite players can at least get you past the first freakin' round! elite players almost always have a reliable go to move, as well...which leads to my last point...elite players don't have lingering questions about whether or not they want the ball down the stretch...yet kg has always had those questions about him.

as long as those things apply...he's considered second fiddle on a great team.

btw, that does not make him a bad player. notice i said a "great" team. kg (if it makes you feel better) is a great player on very good team...but not "the man" on a great team.

 

Andre MIller is a joke. And he was in the World's games last summer! lmfao. No wonder we lost.

 

Without prejudice you should have posted this similar opinion 2 weeks when Andre Miller literarily outplayed Francis in Compaq Center (save for the OT and missed FT in the last minute).

Like I have always said; Francis is definitely a better athlete compared to AM but Andre is IMO a better "floor general" (PG). We will win just as many games with Miller (if not more) as with Francis. It is not sweet talk but closer to the truth than you can imagine. This season as far as Andre is concerned is an anomally - Andre's history (with the Utes and Cavs) shows that.

 

So its basically Miller > Mobley... right?

 

I don't want a "floor general" that can't take Elton Brand and co. to a better record than what they have. As someone from the board and others I know in LA who have watched Miller's game, have all said he plays for stats. He got the numbers in Cleveland but still didn't even get close to a .500 record. He might have outplayed Francis but what happens to all the other guys he plays against? Maybe if he played against Francis 82 games a season the Clips would have a better record and everyone would want All-World-Miller. You can tell he gets up for that match up but that's basically the only time I see him "aggressive".

 

What are you talking about. Miller didn't do crap in Cleveland, that's why they shipped his butt to Clipperland for Miles. Cleveland is have as much success with Miles as their PG as they did with Miller as their PG. The Clippers are worse this year with Miller than they were last year without him.

Did you also know that Francis had a better assist average as a shooting guard as Miller did as a PG in college.