Religious intolerance in Indonesia: Muslims as victims of brutal killing

Sharia law doesn't exist in the USA.

Shariah courts exist there I believe, and you are at liberty to use them or not. I'm fine with it. Should I really be saddened if there is a person who was non Muslim, became Muslim, left Islam (all public declarations) and then rejected appeals 3 times..... then this non-Muslim chooses to go to Sharia court? lol I'd rather get this person out of the gene pool frankly.

 

If:

A) You are alluding to the US and Guantanamo Bay tortures.

and

B) You can show me a flash mob in the US performing the kind of barbaric acts seen in that video

then

C) Yes, I would say something is inherently wrong with that society

Spoiler

next time please compare apples with apples.

Political torture of POWs is one thing (not saying its right), but its a whole other thing when common folks do it. Blatant murder in broad daylight. Sort of reminds me of blacks being lynched in the open that I read about in history books. I thought we were PAST that.

 

I'm waiting for my apology.

 

I've generally stayed out of ATW's bash Islam threads but I will defend Indonesia as I place that I have been to quite often and which is a very beautiful and diverse country.

I will not deny that there are problems in Indonesia. It is a riven by economic instability, corruption and ethnic and yes even religious tensions. To reduce those problems though as being caused by an innate propensity to violence though is a vast oversimplification of the problem and largely not true.

For instance in the example cited by ATW I will point out that Christian groups have also killed Muslims in Sulawesi and other parts of Indonesia. The East Timorese liberation group, largely catholic, undertook terrorist attacks against the government. Most of the violence in Indonesia has been due to political and ethnic policies rather than religious as the Jakarta government has taken a heavy hand on various groups in other parts of the country such as Timor and Irian Jaya (New Guinea). At the same time primarily Muslim settlers have been with the government's encouragement moving into predominantly Christian areas of Sulawesi and other islands causing more tensions. The violence there is often portrayed as Muslim verus Christian when it is really about Javanese newcomers displacing Sulawesians.

Also consider the piece that started this thread. This is truly a horrific event but even in that piece it pointed out how most Indonesians were shocked and dismayed by this and felt let down by the police. This isn't some event that Indonesians are holding up as just and the norm but an event that they find shocking and uncommon like dragging death of James Byrd.

Finally I will add again that for those who continue to harbor the belief that Indonesia is some sort of religious hell hole of violent extremists go visit the place. Its easy to just cherry pick stories to paint it in the worst light possible and say that it is representative of the whole country and people. It is another to go and travel and meet the people and learn their history. As I said before when I went to Lake Toba in September I saw several Christian Churches nearby to Mosques and even Chinese temples (keep in mind there is a far greater history of violence to Chinese of any religion than to Christians of any ethnicity). In the city of Medan there were bars next door to the main mosque where Indonesians and foreigners drank alcohol openly in the site of the mosque with no fear of reprisal. While those who seek to bash Muslims might want to selectively pick out stories to try to paint the impression that it is some hot bed of religious extremists the reality is far different than that.

 

And thousands of Neo Nazis rally annually in Germany so do I judge Germany based on those?

Anyway I have said you have no interest in actually discussing or debating this issue. You are closed minded and hypocritical when it comes to this issue.

I am only responding for other people that may form a false impression of Indonesia.

 

Wait so first you say that crazed civilians partaking in such a brutal act are not in fact crazy or insane, rather the society is inherently messed up.

When given an opportunity to take back your words and show you the way you err, you further dig your hole by saying there were uniformed policemen in the area, hence making it a societal issue.

And then when asked if uniformed men taking part in torturing and killing prisoners makes you label the whole society as being inherently wrong?"

You decide to automatically get on the defensive and say that it is not a valid comparison? That the society isn't the one supporting the barbaric acts, rather the political system.

What do you say about the comments that regular Americans make when it comes to Abu Ghraib?

http://mediamatters.org/blog/200905120042

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/multimedia/2008/02/gallery_abu_ghraib

Spoiler

Or what about the mob like behavior in Australia, is that society in general deranged?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1903038,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Indians_in_Australia_controversy

What is it that makes the society perverse and not the individual?
Skin Color? Religion?


Seems to me, you can label anything an apple when it is to your benefit, and then turn around and call something else an orange.

Spoiler

Differences exist, even when comparing apples, that doesn't mean you throw out the comparison out the window.

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to adeelsiddiqui again.

 

repped

 

So the several hundred people or so in that crowd are all clinically insane? They're not just ****ed up, period? A large group of crazies just happened to have a town hall meeting? I guess serial killers can technically be 'crazy/insane' but that doesn't mean they're not ****ed up.

Another point you apparently missed, I didn't say country, or I would have said Indonesia as a whole. Indonesia is too large of a country to make any over-reaching generalization hold water. I was referring to THAT society, that town, or region; whatever society that is condoning this type of behavior right infront of their eyes. Also, I questioned what reasons (religious or political) did the President have for the reluctant response in condemning the attacks? You responded to my post but you still haven't answered my question.

I said that the society obviously has issues, whether the reasons being socioeconomic, political, religious, etc etc., I'm sure its rather a combination than just a single reason; and you immediately assume I was speaking solely about religion. Defensive, much?

Once again, lets compare apples with apples. I show you a video of a flash mob bashing large sticks repeatedly into the back of a dead man's head. You show me comments by interest posters on news blogs, the same internet notorious for insensitive comments under the veil of anonymousness. But these are words! Words posted on the internet! Once again, please show me a video where we can see in the US anything remotely close to what we saw in the original video.

 

Hardly.. lol

To others, let's try to be objective. Instead of immediately going on the defensive thinking everything is 'anti-muslim' lol.

This is the original post by SunsRockets fan and adeelsiddiqui's response.

I think I elaborated on the topic for him but in his world it's just 'crazies' and 'idiots'. In fact, 300 of them in one place.

 

Yes, Lets be objective

To you, Its more plausible that the whole area (As SunsRocketsfan mentioned, not only Indonesia, but that part of the world in general) is f'ed up and has something inherently wrong, than a hundred dumbasses gathering to commit a heinous, idiotic crime that only an uneducated fool would?

Yes yes, and I am the irrational one.

 

Except for that is exactly what you did, You generalized, and you supported SunsRocketsFan's generalization, you referred to the whole LARGE country by labeling everyone in that region, in that area as having something wrong with them. Heck, Indonesia is a small group of Islands compared to "that area" (as SunsRocketsFans so gently put it)

 

Of course I am defensive. When someone tries to pin the crime of a savage group on my religion, of-course I am defensive. That's what the whole topic of this thread is. RELIGION.

Yes words, they are so harmless...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlKmiPCVStc

 

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm


Please read this, it will be worth your time!!!. He explains my perspective quite well and I think he'll change your mind about it as well.

 

Playing the victim role, and the inability to recognize it might not be because the world is out to get them.

"It must be because they hate Muslims"

Ironically, this is the same type of obstinate mentality that leads the "crazies" to blow up buildings and wage war against the world.

 

Perhaps the first step towards any solution is taking a hard look at the problem and identifying the causes, even if it means admitting to part of the blame.

Instead of denying, denying, denying. "How dare you suggest something is wrong with my religion? Those people who commit heinous acts in the name of my religion, are not followers of my religion, they are just idiots and crazies. And there are idiots and crazies are all around the world."

How about saying "Right, there could be some things wrong with how (enter: I/my country/some people of my religion/etc) handled things, and I/we should work on that, but here is my/our side of the story and what I/we would like different as well."