Religious Discrimination

You expect me to sift through all the pages?

Nevermind, I take it back.

 

What I'm saying is that if you follow Islam to a T, you can't possibly be a terrorist, because it's against law to "terrorize" people.

I do agree that many people manipulate Islam to achieve their goals, and that this manipulation is connected to Islam more than any other religion at this point in time. It's more complex to understand which is why more misunderstandings may and probably do occur.

 

University of Chicago.......

<a HREF="http://www-news.uchicago.edu/resources/nobel/economics.html">University of Chicago Economic Sciences Nobel Laureates</a>

 

Mango, I did not respond to you to argue about Pakistan's education system. People go abroad to the US and the UK for college from all over the world, especially upper class kids from all over South Asia. I never mentioned anything about Madrassas, I mentioned the Christian schools and hospitals as examples of how Christianity is not being wiped off the face of Pakistan as some people think.

I think you should read this book. It's a book about the formation of India and Pakistan. It gives some insight about how Pakistan ended up being so backwards compared to India.

 

I'm no good with the editing quotes stuff, so I hope this comes out clear:

- If what you call religious discrimination is a country treating the people that built it a little better, then hell yes it's going on and hell yes I support it. If you don't like this alleged religious discrimination, pick up and leave the coutnry.

- There's no lack of ability to negotiate a meaningful choice. You have the choice to stay or leave. If they were forcing you to change your religion, then yeah, but that's not what they're doing. They are telling you to keep your religious beliefs private if you want to enjoy the benefits of living in their country. You want to cash in on Saudi's money, but you want to live by your rules? How about they set aside a piece of land and turn it into paradise for you?

- Acually, the problem IS that you grant freedom to everyone in the U.S., because when you wipe out all the lines, everything gets mixed up and there are no boundaries anymore. You don't realize how hard it is for someone to be a good Muslim living in a "free" country. if the whole world was "free" it would make it more and mroe difficult to be a good muslim. I don't see freedom as a good thing in THIS situation. When the whole world grants complete freedom, and I decide I want to be a good Muslim, where do I go? It's the same everywhere, so what do I do?

- Point taken on Christians being treated that way in Pakistan. But, obviously, I don't agree with MIStreating people because of their religion.

- Does it really matter if that Pakistani law is writen? If 95% are Muslim, no one is going to vote for anyone else anyway.

- Iran had that law down before 1978 I believe, before the revolution. Around 95% of the population is Shiite anyway, so it makes no difference that the law states you have to be shiite. Saudi is progressing really well, so is the U.A.E., Kuwait, Bahrain, and Qatar. Although I don't think its a law in some of those countries.

- So what if Christians/Jews created those operating systems? Who says I can't use them if a Muslim didn't create them? hey're people of the book, we respect them, live with them. Muslims can even marry Jewish (unlikely) or Christian women without converting them.


Islam doesn't change over time. That's the difference. It actually that the rules apply the same all through time. If a book is written by God to serve man for all time (till judgement day), then shouldn't it apply to everything after it? If man had the expertise to "modernize" it, then they man would've written the book eventually anyway without any help.

You argue with facts and statistics but the greates revelations are those that defy facts and statistics. Jesus curing sickness, Moses splitting the sea, a rock floating at the side of the Ka'aba. You can show me endless facts and statistics about how they're all impossible, but it happened.

 

this is true in any context.....and its something we see everyday...the extremes are the ones that get the most coverage...and they dont really speak for that many people in the first place since they are the extremes....but it sure seems like the other side likes to use the actions of the extremists to judge the entire other side of the aisle.(both sides are equally guilty of this)

on your other point....

in this country, we dont restrict what one does individually in the name of religion...the individual has every right to practice their religion in peace......just as long as you dont attempt to interject your religion into the government's practices and policies.

that was the implyed intention of the guarantee of religious freedom in this country.....personal religious freedom....matter of fact, if you read thru the history books about the founders and their decendants....it was considered very important to ensure the church was a seperate entity from the government.

 

It's very new to me to have discussions with someone who openly opposes equality. This is fascinating. I was trying to stay out of this thread, but I couldn't pass up the chance to remark somebody advocating inequality.

In my own private thoughts I understand the desire for order, and setting boundries. I would like the U.S. to be a constitutional monarchy, but I would like the ideals of gentry to be open to everyone who acts reasonably within the code of gentleman.

 

i would agree with this if you're talking about Christians in America...though, not all Christians in America. I would definitely disagree with this assertion if you're approaching it from a global perspective.

but the indicators of passion that you find in the muslim faith and what we seek in the christian faith are not the same. there's some very deep theological differences which that can be attributed to..but that sounds like a whole other thread topic...or maybe just an email.

 

Yep. The Chicago Boys!

Carry on...

 

This baffles me as well.

Some of these countries have the people so indoctrinated, that they can't see the forest through the trees.

I guess if I was a Muslim man, and could have numerous wives and could completely control the situation I might be hesitant to change too.

I think they are afraid of the freedoms that the rest of the world enjoy because it takes the power and disperses it equally amongst the people.

And, that is not something the Muslim faith wants to have happen.

They are all about controlling their people through fear....ain't that great?

DD

 

If I am not mistaken, people of the Christian faith, particularly people in power, have done many of the same things you decry in the Muslim faith.

Just as there are nutjobs in the Muslim faith, there are (and have been in the past) similarly deluded nutjobs in the Christian faith.

How long was it in America before women received the right to vote, much less African-Americans? IIRC, there were plenty of Christians who were resistant to both of those movements.

 

Excellent post, Mango. It points out so well the thing that causes me the most conflict with outsourcing. It is one of the most powerful components for lifting the developing world up into modern society for the bulk of their people. "Trickle down" economics? That is what outsourcing does for countries like India, as it would for Pakistan, as an example, if the political/religious climate were conducive to it.

<a HREF="http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/presskit/1_AHDR03%20E1_FINAL.pdf">A Call to “Reclaim Arab Knowledge”</a>

Here, a telling statistic shown is that 1.6% of the Arab population has internet access, as compared to 68% of the population of the UK and 79% of the US population. A pretty staggering comparison.

<a HREF="http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/presskit/6_AHDR03ExSum_E.pdf">2003 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: Arab Human Development Report </a>

I would highly recommend that people read this. It's a little long, but presents a picture most of us are not aware of. And we should be. I would post a couple of quotes from it, but i don't know how to do that with a pdf. file.

Back in the mid-'60's, the US had a strong USAID program to bring developing countries colleges and universities up to date academically on subjects that would be of particular help for such a country, like technology, so students could be taught the latest on a subject, instead of things out of date for 10, 20 years or longer. My father participated in the program for about 15 years, health permitting. He taught professors during summers in both East and West Pakistan, as well as in India, twice in Bangalore. (a very sleepy city, and less than 20 years since the British left. It was facinating for me to see. I'm sure I'd scarcely recognize it today)

Thirty years later, what do we see? And remember, programs like this were being done in both Pakistan and India. India is becoming an economic powerhouse, driven largely by technology, and Pakistan? Mired in political, religious and economic chaos, with little in the way of progress, compared to India. Food for thought.


edit: I got those two links from Mango's post before mine, in case that wasn't figured out by anyone.

 

Andy,

I fully acknowledge that fact.

No doubt, lots of Christian nutjobs over the centuries.

The difference is that we seperated Church and State and that is exactly what needs to happen in the Middle East if they want to join the rest of the free world.

Technology has opened up the world but the Muslim leaders are digging their fingernails into the sand and being dragged into the 21st century.

It is inevitable, the changes coming, womans rights, personal freedoms, voluntary religious attendance.

It is coming, and they are trying like hades to stop it. They are using poverty to keep the populace down, but it won't last forever.

Unfortunatly lots will die while we wait for them to join the future, and leave the past were it belongs...in the past.

DD

 

Just as lots died while the Christian faith was in its beginnings (which, as compared to Christianity and Judaism, Islam is).

Decrying the entire faith because of the actions of a radical few is as useless as saying that since David Duke is a Christian, ALL Christians must be bigoted racists bent on the domination of the white race.

Obviously, neither is true.

 

and at the same time, the abolitionists gathered out of churches.

i don't think you can cite to the Bible to justify either of those evils. we can look at how Christ treated other people and find our model. certainly people have distorted that.

what we in the western world are asking for is a similar explanation from muslims from the Koran. if i can say, as a Christ-follower, "look guys, that's not Christianity at all...that's not what it teaches...here's what the Bible says about X, Y and Z" then you might find comfort in that, if you're not a Christ-follower. At least then you know it's about misguided individuals and not a faith that, in and of itself, leads to that kind of stuff. frankly, a ton of our concepts of government and personal liberty stream from judeo-christian thought.

is the same thing true of islam? of the koran?? i've read the Koran, and frankly i have more than a few questions. this is the burden of modern-day Islam, I think. not that they want the job...or not that the task is fair...but because the perception from the rest of the world is outright fear. fear that this is about more than just some misguided individuals.

 

Personally, I have as many questions about Christianity as I do about Islam (having read both texts). Just as you can point to the Bible and the teachings of Christ to show how misguided people are responsible for atrocities such as the Crusades, Muslims can point to the Koran and the teachings of Muhammed to show how it is misguided people that have perverted their faith and encouraged followers to commit atrocities like 9/11.

By far the VAST majority of Muslims are peaceful people who do not want to kill Christians, just as the VAST majority of Christians are peaceful people who do not want to kill Muslims.

Obviously, there are nutjobs on either side, but painting the ENTIRE Muslim world with a 9/11 brush is totally unfair.

 

The issue is that Christianity tells you to love your enemy, and Islam encourages you to battle them.

DD