Though the founding fathers were almost exclusively christian ( I'm not aware of any 'others') many of them were descendents of people that had had to flee their native countries to avoid religiuos persecution. This was primarily one sect of christian against another but, what it made them realize was the propensity for people who feel annointed by their diety with self-rightiousness to impose their "truth" onto other peoples. So, they specifically set up the the laws of this country to remain secular, even in the face of a majority opinion, to prevent the rights and beliefs of of any American from being outlawed. (well, not poligimast, or santarina animal scacrificers, or Rasta herbal sacriment worshippers or universal life tax dodgers or...)
Some where Christians, some were agnostics, some were atheist. The point is that the Constitution was setup to prevent any single "religion" from imposing their views on the whole of the country. That's what is important here.
that is basically the way I understand it... The Puritans were being persecuted becuase of their views that the Anglican church was still too dependent on the rituals and policies of the Roman Catholic Church.. at that time, the laws in effect in England required that you expouse the anglican faith....it wasnt just the Puritans that were persecuted, it was also the people that stuck with the Catholic doctrine of Papal supremecy.. the way I se this is not as much that they were not religious men....but they just didnt like being forced to follow a doctrine that they didnt believe in....and so when they(and their descendents) formed this country, they didnt want a repeat of what had happened before in England....so made sure to forbid the state the power to establish a religion that everyone was forced to follow. my point is......religion was a HUGE part in why this country was formed in the first place...freedom to practice whatever religion you wanted to be exact. sorry for derailing this topic....I wanted to address the fallacy that America wasnt founded by Christians.....it was...there is absolutely no argument possible considering the facts.
That's right. A personal relationship with God. I dislike it when it becomes institutionalized, politicized and capitalized (money). The funny thing is that "religion" intertwined with government is in opposition to democracy and the Constitution. We know this from authoritative religions in history. I sometimes I think that some "fundamental religious evangelicals" want to go back to the authoritarian days. Scary.
lots of interesting quotes on religion from Thomas Jefferson some examples: "[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed,... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67 "Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:301, Papers 2:545 "Ministers of the Gospel are excluded [from serving as Visitors of the county Elementary Schools] to avoid jealousy from the other sects, were the public education committed to the ministers of a particular one; and with more reason than in the case of their exclusion from the legislative and executive functions." --Thomas Jefferson: Note to Elementary School Act, 1817. ME 17:419 "I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrines; nor of the religious societies, that the General Government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting and prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them, an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises and the objects proper for them according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands where the Constitution has deposited it... Everyone must act according to the dictates of his own reason, and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:429
we are in total agreement on that point. (unusual considering Im directly opposite of you in GARM) I wasnt saying that the country was formed to force religion onpeople....because of their experiences in England, they were particularly emphatic about making sure everyone had the freedom to believe what they wanted... Which actually means that even tho the in general populace wasnt being forced to one religion or another, it was in fact formed by men with strong religious views.... The main difference between Christianity now and then is that as proto-Luthernists(Calvinists), they had slightly different views towards salvation. Contrast with the Christian views of salvation and saving the unbelievers nowadays....then you see why the fundamentalist Christians want to expand on what the Puritans originally intended when forming the country.
Yep. And even if "men with strong religious views" got what they wanted. There would always be another group of "men with strong religious views" that would oppose them. Religious wars all over again; even if the nonbelievers were eliminated/killed (a return to he old days). And on the statement, "why the fundamentalist Christians want to expand on what the Puritans originally intended when forming the country..." The thought that "Fundamentalist Christians" have an agenda to make people do/think what they want (form the country)? Hmmm....like I said. It's anti-Constitution. Yes, one can choose (God over Bill of Rights or vice-versa). But, don't you think that in reality some fundamentalist don't like the Constitution and all the freedom it allows? They would say that the "Bible" is their "Constitution." I would say, Ok fine. But that completely undermines the whole point of Democracy and the Constitution. I say, move to another "historic" country (14th -16th Century England/Spain). Ha! "To the rack with the Heretic! Blasphemy!" -- So says the King of England
I hate to say it, but to a certain extent I agree. After hearing what several of the radical religious right(Fallwell, Robertson,et al) had to say a few years back about getting their kind of people in public office so they could influence the country towards more moral laws and outlaw things they dont believe in....I know they are tryin hard to turn us into a Christian run country with laws that reflect their beliefs... Thankfully...I do still believe that if they ever tried to cross the line away from a secular government...the public wouldnt stand for it since it would require overturning a part of the constitution... but it is still a scary thought...
Oh yeah, the public would stand for it. That's why the fathers segregated the supreme court fom the elective process (or tried to). You know the public stood for burning witches.
Exactly. And it's not an issue that most people aren't "religous," "moral" or "just." It's about not letting ONE SINGLE RELIGIOUS GROUP gain power and mandate it on the whole of the people. One thing that angers people is when one religious group think they OWN the "franchise" on the words "good" "righteous" and "moral." In the end, each person will choose what direction their lives will go. And God will make the decision on salvation.
Gene, wasn't that certain groups (Ohio, Massachusetts)? Not everyone. Seems like mass hysteria created by a few. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/97/salem/ http://www.salemweb.com/guide/witches.shtml
Mass hysteria is very underrated in it's ability to transform history. (see the tech boom of the 1990's)
The title of this thread is <i>Religious Discrimination</i>. When I point out instances of Christians and other being treated as secondary citizens in some countries with dominant Muslim populations.......you fallback to they know how it is and it is their chcice to remain in that situation. <a HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=oppression">Oppression</a> <i>an unjust or excessive exercise of power:</i> <i> inequality of bargaining power resulting in one party's lack of ability to negotiate or exercise meaningful choice</i> <i>the state of being kept down by unjust use of force or authority: "after years of oppression they finally revolted</i> It may be part of your culture......but it is still oppression. Again you miss the point........the problem is not that we grant freedom to others in the U.S.......the problem is that other countries are locked in a rigid mindset and don't grant more freedom to those who don't think and act like the dominant/majority group. <a HREF="http://www.hrw.org/wr2k3/asia8.html">HRW 2003: Pakistan</a> I have seen estimates of 95% - 96% being Muslim. I cited Pakistan and you cited Iran. Neither of them are shining examples of progressive governments trying to better the lives of their citizens. Outside of the Muslim world, I am not familar with Presidents or Prime Ministers having to be of a certain religious faith (decreed by written law). There are probably some old monarchy type situations were a certain religion has to be followed, but the monarchy system has been in a huge decline in the 20th - 21st centuries and has evolved to a more ceremonial status than a power/control status. The Western World has gone through tremendous change over the past 100 years and the trend points to more change. Whatever <i>Rules</i> we had in place were reexamined and updated to fit the situation. The Muslim World seems to be against reexamining its <i>Rules</i> and that seems to be the crux of our differences. The computer that you are using to read this probably is running an operating system of: 1) Windows variation 2) Unix 3) Apple (Unix variant) 4) Linux None of those have an origin in the Muslim World. Computers and the operating systems that they use trace back to scientific discovery and experimentation from Europe and the U.S. Probably some people of the Jewish faith participated in these scientific advancements that created the computer you are using. The various parts of the computer perhaps were produced in the Asia by people who aren't even of the <i>Book</i>. Even in India, there are efforts being made to join the Modern World: <a HREF="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/26/1093456733920.html?oneclick=true">Rickshaws help wheel in computer age</a> <i>Bithoor, India August 27, 2004 For 12-year-old Anju Sharma, hope for a better life arrives in her poor farming village three days a week on a bicycle rickshaw that carries a computer with a high-speed, wireless internet connection. Designed like temple carriages that bear Hindu deities during festivals, the brightly painted pedal-cart rolls into her village in India's most populous state, accompanied by a computer instructor who gives classes to young and old, students and teachers alike. "By using computers, I can improve my knowledge," Sharma, whose parents plan to pull her out of school at 15, said in Hindi, before joining a class on web cameras. "And that will help me get a job when I grow up." The bicycle cart is the centre of a project called Infothela, or info-cart. It aims to use technology to improve education, health care and access to agricultural information in India's villages, where most of the country's 1.06 billion people live. Conceived in 2003 by the Indian Institute of Technology in Kanpur, about 16km southwest of Bithoor, the project is funded by the national government and provides free computer classes in six villages here in Uttar Pradesh state. Another computer on a pedicab is being used in an experiment to help doctors in Lucknow, the state capital, provide consultation to villagers through video-conferencing in nearby Saroha village. A project to disseminate the latest crop prices and farming methods is also being developed. In Bithoor, on the banks of the Ganges River in northern India, manual labour is the alternative to farming and annual incomes rarely exceed 6000 rupees ($A180). Sharma's teachers make only 500 rupees ($A15) a month. Young people look for jobs in cities, but often lose out to better educated urbanites. "Computers and internet open up new opportunities for these villagers," said Lalty Dutta, a project official. With only 12 computers and four internet connections per 1,000 people, India has one of the world's lowest internet usage rates and much of rural India remains oblivious to the sweep of technology. But the villages involved in Infothela all lie within an 80-km wireless corridor created by the Institute of Technology and linked by high-rise Wi-Fi antennae and amplifiers along the highway. Until recently, such technology was the privilege of a tiny section of Indians - engineers in the country's software hubs who earn more money while in their twenties than Bithoor farmers do in a lifetime. India churns out 300,000 engineers each year and is a growing software power, but farmers are the backbone of its economy. Infothela seeks to break the disparity that confines access to technology and growing affluence to the cities. Many Indian villages are poorly wired - telephone lines can go dead for weeks at a time - making wireless technology the most reliable web connection. The mobility of a cycle rickshaw, which is light enough to cross muddy, potholed roads, ensures that the same computer and internet connection can be used by people in several neighbouring villages. The Infothela cart has a specially designed frame and cushioning to protect the computer and accessories from the bumpy ride. "The mobile platform is necessary to reduce cost of ownership because the resources are shared by a larger population. It is also necessary to push information to women and elderly people who can't travel outside their village," said Manoj Kumar, a project manager. The service is free for now, but fees will eventually be charged, Kumar said. A few kilometres from Bithoor, another cycle rickshaw carries its high-tech load to Gorahah village, where men and women gather side-by-side for a class on electronic mail. The mix is nothing short of a revolution in tradition-bound rural India, where women are often kept indoors. "We are now learning computers. There is no point if we can't use that new knowledge. We have to go out and do something worthwhile," said Snehalatha, 22, who also attends college. Clad in orange pants and a pink tunic, Snehalatha signs up for Yahoo mail, as an impatient queue lengthens behind her. The classes teach the basics of computing, word processing, spreadsheets, internet browsing and web cameras. Once they learn to use a webcam the villagers can take part in online classes, something the info-cart organisers hope to implement later. The simple lessons are a big privilege in an Indian village, where half the population can't read or write. In Bithoor, which is mired in tradition and poverty, Sharma's parents plan to take her out of school in about three years, so she can be trained in domestic chores and married by 18. But a brush with computers has made Sharma look beyond cooking and washing. "I want to work and make a name for myself. I want to see the world," she said, adding that she hopes to get a job in the city and then travel more widely. Sharma said she has not disclosed her plans to her parents lest they stop her from attending computer classes, "But I know what I will do." </i> There was an article from last winter that put some numbers to these things that impact the Muslim World. <a HREF="http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/01/26/1075087954349.html?from=storyrhs">Job creation - the way to defuse Arab anger</a> <i>A middle class with dignity and hope will give rise to people with peaceful aspirations, writes Thomas L. Friedman. The big question for the West in the post-September 11 world is: what tactics can we adopt to strengthen the moderates in the Arab-Muslim world to fight the war of ideas against the forces of intolerance within their civilisation - which is where the real war on terrorism will either be won or lost? Ideas don't just spread on their own. Ideas spread in a context. So often, since September 11, people have remarked to me: "Wow, Islam, that's a really angry religion." I disagree. I do agree, though, that there are a lot of young Muslims who are angry, because they live in some of the most repressive societies, with the fewest opportunities for women and youth, and with some of the highest unemployment. Bad contexts create an environment where humiliation - and the anger, bad ideas and violence that flow from it - are rife. In short, it is impossible for us to talk about winning the war of ideas in the Arab-Muslim world without talking about the most basic thing that gives people dignity and hope: a job. advertisement advertisement "What we're really facing is not a clash of civilisations, but a clash of generations," argues David Rothkopf, a former acting US under-secretary of commerce. "You have an ageing developed world, particularly Europe, that is trying to protect its jobs, and you have a young, job-seeking, job-needing emerging world, particularly the Islamic world, that will go anywhere and do anything to either seize the job opportunities or express their frustration with not having opportunities." Of the 90 million Arab youth today (between the ages of 15 and 24), 14 million are unemployed, many of them among the 15 to 20 million Muslims now living in Europe. "There's not enough jobs and not enough hope," Jordan's King Abdullah told the Davos economic forum. <b> According to the 2003 Arab Human Development Report, between 1980 and 1999 the nine leading Arab economies registered 370 patents (in the US) for new inventions. Patents are a good measure of a society's education quality, entrepreneurship, rule of law and innovation. During that same 20-year period, South Korea registered 16,328 patents for inventions. You don't run into a lot of South Koreans who want to be martyrs. I was at Google's headquarters in Silicon Valley a few days ago and they have this really amazing electronic global map that shows, with lights, how many people are using Google to search for knowledge. The region stretching from Morocco to the border of India had almost no lights. </b> I attended a breakfast at Davos on the outsourcing of high-tech jobs from the US and Europe to the developing world. There were Indian and Mexican businessmen there, and much talk about China. But not a word was spoken about outsourcing jobs to the Arab world. The context - infrastructure, productivity, education - just isn't there yet. So what to do? A lot of help can and should come from Europe. Although America is often the target, Europe has been the real factory of Arab-Muslim rage. Europe has done a poor job of integrating and employing its growing Muslim minorities, many of which have a deep feeling of alienation. And Europe has done a very poor job of investing in North Africa and the Middle East - its natural backyard. America is far from perfect in this regard, but by forging a free trade agreement, the NAFTA, with Mexico, the US helped create a political and economic context there that not only spurred jobs and the modernisation of Mexico, but created the environment for its democratisation. Former Mexican president Ernesto Zedillo says: "I don't think I would have been successful in political reform without the decent economic growth we had (spurred by NAFTA) from 1996 to 2000." It was in that optimistic environment that Mexico had its first democratic transition from the ruling party to the opposition. The war of ideas among Arabs and Muslims can only be fought and won by their own forces of moderation, and those forces can only emerge from a growing middle class with a sense of dignity and hope for the future. Young people who grow up in a context of economic opportunity, basic rule of law and the right to speak and write what they please don't usually want to blow up the world. They want to be part of it.</i> Interesting reads: <a HREF="http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/presskit/6_AHDR03ExSum_E.pdf">2003 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: Arab Human Development Report </a> <a HREF="http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/presskit/1_AHDR03%20E1_FINAL.pdf">A Call to “Reclaim Arab Knowledge”</a>
I don't want to get into this discussion, but I'd like to point out two things: I'm not going to claim that there are no discrimination and attacks on Christians in Pakistan because there obviously are, but I'd like to point out that there are a LOT of Christian institutions in Pakistan. My father went to a Catholic school in Lahore where a lot of current and former Pakistani politicians went to school (Nawaz Sharif, his brother, former president Farooq Leghari, and a lot more). I even have a distant relative about my age that went to a Catholic school for his A-levels (last couple of years of secondary school, I think... I don't completely understand the British system) because it is one of the two best prep schools in Karachi. Christian run schools and hospitals are everywhere and functional even in Karachi. I even saw a Seventh Day Adventist hospital in Karachi this summer. Also, AMD's K6 processor was adapted from a processor designed by a privately held Pakistani-American company sold to AMD for $800 million.
Mango, thanks for the article by Thomas L. Friedman. I'm a fan of his writings; economic and social. Also like reading about F.A. Hayek (god-father of free-markets) and social economist John Maynard Keynes (a brilliant economist of his time).
<a HREF="http://www.foundriesholdings.com/about/management.html#saiyed"> Atiq Raza: Chairman and Chief Executive Officer</a> <i> Atiq Raza is the Founder, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Foundries Holdings, Inc. (formerly known as Raza Foundries). Prior to Foundries Holdings, Mr. Raza was President and Chief Operating Officer of Advanced Micro Devices (AMD). At AMD, Mr. Raza oversaw the development of AMD's processor roadmap and brought the AMD-K6 and Athlon family of processor products to the market. Mr. Raza became part of AMD's management team after the merger with NexGen, Inc. in January 1996, where he was Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. Prior to joining NexGen, Mr. Raza spent fifteen years in various engineering and management positions, including Vice President Technology Centers at VLSI Technology Incorporated. Mr. Raza obtained his Bachelor's degree with Honors from the University of London, and a Master's degree from Stanford University. Mr. Raza serves on the board of directors of several private companies. </i> I have no problem with you citing Mr. Raza as a successful Pakistani - American. It appears that significant parts of his education were in the U.S. & England and not in Pakistan. Also, his achievements seemed to have been accomplished in the U.S. rather than in Pakistan. Would he have been able to accomplish as much in his life if he had stayed in Pakistan? If you refer back to the Friedman article that I quoted: I was at Google's headquarters in Silicon Valley a few days ago and they have this really amazing electronic global map that shows, with lights, how many people are using Google to search for knowledge. The region stretching from Morocco to the border of India had almost no lights. People that come to the U.S. from other countries are usually trying to improve their lot in life or explore options that aren't available to them in their native countries.....such as it appears for Mr. Raza. ....but the <i>Madrassa</i> system still lingers in Pakistan. I am only guessing, but there are probably significant multiples of students in <i>Madrassas</i> compared to those in Christian Schools. Yet, the quality of education is probably much better in the Christian schools because they have a broader-based curriculum than the <i>Madrassa</i> schools.
I like Friedman also. Hayek & Keynes...........they don't get much <i>play</i> in this Forum. Interesting people, but not sure of the demand for discussions in those subject areas. In regards to posting articles......that tends to be my nature and I try to select quality when possible.
Thomas Friedman's economic article reminded me of another "Friedman." Milton Friedman (a pupil of Hayak's free-market theories). Both Hayek and Milton Friedman belived that open-markets helped combat represive governments, unrest and uplift a country's dignity. Similar to what Thomas Friedman was saying. That's all. Didn't mean to "highjack" the thread. It was kinda off-topic.
