There's nothing to forgive, Achebe. It's no big deal. I've had one or two bad days myself. I always seem to take out on some poor teenage girl behind the counter at some restaurant. That always makes me feel really cool afterwards.
LOL. Thanks for your forgiveness Traj. Now's where I punch myself in the head 5x because of offending someone. Tonight instead of being frustrated with every little person on the road I'll have to do a number of good deeds (so back on topic... somebody review deeds and indulgences, lol).
In an attempt to sort of bring this back to the original question... Jews and *Arab* Muslims don't like each other because of 20th century events. Specifically, the establishment of Israel after World War II in a region where Arabs had lived for years, causing massive displacement of people. And then, the resulting wars where Israel increased its territory and broke various agreements and resolutions, etc. In the past, however, my understanding is that the two got along fairly well, especially during periods like the Spanish Inquisition (Jews and Muslims were forced out of Spain, Jews went to Muslim lands because one of the more common beliefs in Islam is to acknowledge / work with the People of the Book).
For the record, Khan's statement that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed all worshipped the "same one God" is a factual statement when speaking of comparative religion - as all three religions are based on the OT. Thus, even if you don't believe in any of the three religions, you should not be offended because stating that they are all based on the same teachings is merely a statement of fact and is different than if he had said something along the lines of "there is no God but God and Mohammed is his prophet" as being the only thing that matters. In regards to the original gootan statement, I saw no problem with it...it is who he is and such statements fill most of his posts. I also agree with JV that posting a "rolleyes" in response to his declaration of faith is a similar kind of value judgement (which then offended Christians). At least you guys aren't killing each other, right? Rare occurrence among religions.
Ah, what power the name of Jesus Christ holds. I apologize to everyone who was offended by my inclusion of this name in the earlier post. I really didn't think anyone had reason to take it as personally as they did. It was not my intent to hurt you in any way. I was trying to answer the question that I had quoted which seemed to allude to the reason of why there are separate denominations within "Christianity". As christianity was my only focus, I really didn't feel the need to cover every angle. (I guess I should be happy that it wasn't met with indifference.)
I believe that at best Jesus was a talented evangelist and holy man. Claiming that he's the son of god is laughable and religiously self-serving. But on to other matters. If all of the roman and greek gods are just myths and fairy tales then why would we think of the bible as anything other than a book of stories with some moral lessons thrown in for good measure? I thought religion was supposed to be about faith, which was certainly present in abundance during the ancient times. The original religions for mankind were paganism and animism which for all intents and purposes are just as valid as christianity, buddhism, islam, or judaism from a faith standpoint. I believe in a god, higher power, etc. I don't pray to it because at this point I'm fairly certain that this higher power is neutral in its opinion of mankind. Maybe there's a heaven and hell or maybe it's all a big nothing or maybe some kind of purgatory. I understand that as mere mortals it is difficult for us to accept the fact that it's quite possible that there is nothing waiting for us when we die. I grew up a catholic and heard the old women and men talk down about other religions just like I heard the southern baptists from my Dad's side of the family speak badly of anyone who wasn't a southern baptist. Religions argue for a good reason from their point of view. No one wants to be proven wrong. To back down from confrontation on matters of faith would show that your beliefs are apparently not as strong as those of your opponents.
I believe that at best Jesus was a talented evangelist and holy man. Claiming that he's the son of god is laughable and religiously self-serving. This is a statement of faith on your part, is it? I apologise. I shouldn’t mock a mocker. The belief that Christ is who the bible says he is doesn’t come through logic. It defies logic, in fact. It comes, in many cases, from the spiritual exploration that follows the realisation that logic does not adequately explain our world, our existence, our nature. It comes from the realisation that we are more than simply logical and emotional beings. We are also spiritual beings. The original religions for mankind were paganism and animism which for all intents and purposes are just as valid as christianity, buddhism, islam, or judaism from a faith standpoint. Since you offer no depth to your opinion there is nothing really to respond to. I will say, however, that as a Christians what I say to you is what I believe. I am not telling you what to believe. I’m telling you what I believe, what my experience has been, and what I believe to be true based on my experience. You have to discern on your own whether there is anything in what I’m saying or not. I believe in a god, higher power, etc. I don't pray to it because at this point I'm fairly certain that this higher power is neutral in its opinion of mankind. Maybe there's a heaven and hell or maybe it's all a big nothing or maybe some kind of purgatory. I understand that as mere mortals it is difficult for us to accept the fact that it's quite possible that there is nothing waiting for us when we die. Ahhh! Now I need to apologise for my previous tone, because it seems to me you are on the path of spiritual discovery. I believe that if you honestly seek the truth, you will find it. It is often a process, however, and almost invariably, in my experience, not an easy one. Good luck with your journey. I’ll add one thought for you. I don’t think it’s logical that our lives have no purpose, that they end in nothingness. I think that that is not a logical conclusion, or a spiritually logical conclusion, about the nature of our existence, or the existence anything else. I grew up a catholic and heard the old women and men talk down about other religions just like I heard the southern baptists from my Dad's side of the family speak badly of anyone who wasn't a southern baptist. Now I have more sympathy for you. I’m not, nor was I ever Catholic, but I’ve known a number of them that seem to have significant and IMO legitimate beefs with their church. This is where I draw a distinct difference between religion and faith. The bible itself talks strongly about religious leaders who do not live by the spirit. (See Mathew 23). The bible also helps you discern who is living by the spirit. It says that you can identify a tree by its fruit, and that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. (See Galatians 5:22). So, as for the people who call themselves Christians and yet live predominately by anger, self-righteousness, and judgement, well, it’s not for me to judge, but again I say see Matthew 23. Religions argue for a good reason from their point of view. No one wants to be proven wrong. To back down from confrontation on matters of faith would show that your beliefs are apparently not as strong as those of your opponents. Again I say, it’s not about logic based proof, and it’s not about making someone believe something. The spiritual journey is one the individual must take on their own. What the rest of us tell you is only reference material. What I would tell you is what I believe and what my experience has been. Perhaps something in it may resonate with you, connect with you, but whether it does or it doesn’t, your spiritual journey is ultimately between you and God alone.
Despite the nature of my posts, I am a spiritual person. I wasn't able to find what I was looking for in conventional religions so I've stepped onto a different path so to speak. I don't believe that our lives have no purpose, but I am prepared to accept the fact that it may be possible that science is correct. However I have too much faith in the supernatural to automatically concede that. I really don't mind christians at all. Everyone is free to go about their own business. The only time they annoy me is when a politician or other figure in a position of authority attempts to pass laws based on their religion's moral codes and apply them to law abiding citizens who don't accept his dogma. I'm a firm believer of separation of church and state. As for the definition of holy man I don't really want to start an argument about that. Each culture and religion has different ways of defining it. As a respected historical religious figure I'm willing to call JC a holy man. As for the nature of his relationship with god, that debate could last another 3 pages.
Since various religious about religion have been expressed here, let me express mine: There is no God of any sort. There is no divine purpose to our lives. Life has no other purpose than what we decide to make of it. When we die, we become worm-food and cease to exist in the manner that we did when we were alive. Religions are mankind's attempt at proposing answers to questions that are unanswerable, a mood-altering experience, and a way to get people to come together through ritual and communal experiences. Religious zealots that spend their lives devoted to their religions and try to jam their beliefs on other people are just as misguided and addicted as mainline heroin junkies, and no better. Because some people have presented their religious beliefs as facts on this thread, I have done the same, but these are merely my own opinions.
I have no problem with you stating your opinion, but when you start comparing somones faith to heroin junkies then you lose your credibility. State your opinion without putting someone down.
Here here. As a heroin addict, I was a bit offended. I have never, ever encouraged anyone else to share my habit.
Comparing it to heroin...Ha!!! Good one, I'll pray that you'll be touched... My belief about the world... EVERYONE is hypnotized until they are saved. When you see and feel God's presence in your life you will look at the rest of the world as if your looking into a fish bowl. You must not or can't even compare people who are trying to HELP you to heroin addicts. Because if you were to actually feel and live the experince with Jesus Christ and his power - you will have no doubt that there is a God. How can you doubt that there is a God? Look at the World - we are a perfect creation not one human looks exactly alike (how many people live on earth?) The earth's creation is no coincidence - everything moves and lives so perfect - think about it... We need every aspect of the earth to actually live - water, air, fire... It comes together so perfect - you are saying that it just happened on its own??? If so - why is this the only planet with any sort of life on it??? The Bible covers everything from homosexuality to prostitution to std's all the way to aliens in Revelations. No book on Earth is more perfect and complete. Coinsidence - no. A person without God is a person without REAL life. I'd die for my belief - and for my God. Only because I know with all my heart and faith that he is REAL.
Where has this thread gone? I thought we were wondering why the Missionary Baptists (if that is a real denomination) and the Southern Baptists don't get along, but it's instead a free-for-all of what everyone believes about God. "Just my own opinion, and I hope it doesn't offend anyone." Anyway, just wanted to chime in with 3 points before this thread sinks to obscurity: 1. Rimbaud, there you go again defending me. You're developing a reputation. But, I think you are wrong saying that the 3 religions worshipping the same God is a factual statement. They may each be based on the OT, but each thinks the other 2 are so far off as to guarantee damnation (well, to whatever extent Jews believe in damnation). If you and I both knew Joe Cool, but I knew him to be a 6' black gymnast while you knew him as a fat female accountant, you can't really say we both know the same guy. 2. My pet peeve: telling people not to force their religious beliefs down other people's throats; that religion is a personal thing that shouldn't be let to affect anyone else. What is this belief that one's beliefs shouldn't be forced on others but a religious belief that you are forcing on others? What if I reject that idea (which I do)? It is just as integral to some's beliefs as Christ is to a Christian's (or the position in the Bible that religion is communal not individual) so I understand why people insist on it so much. At the same time, it is no more valid than Christ and should be no better respected either. 3. Bob* what was that thing you posted about Catholicism and Protestantism? I'll just say I disagree with most all of its factual claims.
JV, but the main differences are not in the interpretation of the original OT god, but in the acceptance of the later prophets/messiahs. So, Jews feel that one hasn't come yet, Christians believe that the one came as Jesus, and Muslims feel that it did not happen until Mohammed. Thus, it is the messianic continuation that most differentiates the religions - and it is because of those messianic interpretations that the original God in the OT appears different. Perhaps, I am just not taking "same God" as literally? Same foundation, maybe? In any event, I still see proclaiming three religions as foundationally based on the same book as less exclusionary than proclaiming one prophet/messiah to be the ultimate truth - my original point. EDIT: In regards to the original Baptist thing - in all of my literature, I could only find mention of the following groups in the US: American Baptist Churches in the USA National Baptist Convention of America National Baptist Convention of the USA, Inc Progressive National Baptist Convention Southern Baptist Convention The 19th century debate over slavery seems to have been the major force behind the original Baptist split (with the Southerns forming in Georgia), at which time there was am American Baptist Home Mission Society, but no longer...
My belief about the world... EVERYONE is hypnotized until they hear the word of Allah. When you see and feel Allah's presence in your life you will look at the rest of the world as if your looking into a fish bowl. You must not or can't even compare people who are trying to HELP you to heroin addicts. Because if you were to actually feel and live the experince Allah and his power through his honorable prohphet, Mohammed - you will have no doubt that Allah exists. How can you doubt Allah? Look at the World - we are a perfect creation not one human looks exactly alike (how many people live on earth?) The earth's creation is no coincidence - everything moves and lives so perfect - think about it... We need every aspect of the earth to actually live - water, air, fire... It comes together so perfect - you are saying that it just happened on its own??? If so - why is this the only planet with any sort of life on it??? The Koran covers everything from homosexuality to prostitution to std's all the way to aliens. No book on Earth is more perfect and complete. Coinsidence - no. A person without Allah is a person without REAL life. I'd die for my belief - and for Allah. Only because I know with all my heart and faith that he is REAL. ------------- My belief about the world... EVERYONE is hypnotized until they hear the word of Yahweh. When you see and feel Yahweh's presence in your life you will look at the rest of the world as if your looking into a fish bowl. You must not or can't even compare people who are trying to HELP you to heroin addicts. Because if you were to actually feel and live the experince of the Torrah and its power through Yahweh - you will have no doubt that He exists. How can you doubt the existence of Yahweh? Look at the World - we are a perfect creation not one human looks exactly alike (how many people live on earth?) The earth's creation is no coincidence - everything moves and lives so perfect - think about it... We need every aspect of the earth to actually live - water, air, fire... It comes together so perfect - you are saying that it just happened on its own??? If so - why is this the only planet with any sort of life on it??? The Torrah covers everything from homosexuality to prostitution to std's all the way to aliens. No book on Earth is more perfect and complete. Coinsidence - no. A person without Yahweh is a person without REAL life. I'd die for my belief - and for Yahweh. Only because I know with all my heart and faith that he is REAL. ------------- Just food for thought.
Jeff, you could have at least included "(sic)" notations by the spelling mistakes. j/k ... good point of course.
