I saw after I replied that you were talking about jewish prayer methods. I apologize, you were right. If Jesus did, indeed, travel in the east and base his prayer method on eastern style, then that certainly would have influenced the early christian prayer I was talking about - and also be the break from jewish modesty. I had the same results at amazon. I have read many comparisons of different figures with christ, but not the one compiled by Borg, I will definitely pick it up. It has been a while since I have immersed myself in religious study - and the last time was centered around the perception of Satan in history (Satan as hideous, as human, as hero), so I have been away from Jesus for some time. Man, I can already see how people will be reading this, "What, he is a satanist, he hasn't found Jesus?" Ha ha. Anyway, thanks, Jeff. You have inspired me to move on to a new emphasis. ------------------ rimbaud post-a-thon 2000
Thanks Sir and rimbaud. Whether we know it or not, we are ALL on a spiritual journey. Someone once said "We are not humans attempting to have a spiritual experience, we are spirits have a human experience." ------------------ "No one gets out ALIVE!" SaveOurRockets.com
I'm going to beg out of this conversation. There are all sorts of retorts I still want to make, but this conversation has been taking too much time out of my work-week. Also, I'm 10 minutes from the weekend so I wouldn't be able to pick it up again until Monday. Anyway, thanks everyone for a good conversation and I'm proud of us for keeping it civil throughout. There are 5 things I have to say, in parting, though I won't try to argue them: 1) The theory I have been avoiding expounding upon is precisely about the Church of Atheism. It is not built like the Christian Church, but it has a doctrine, a priesthood, a theory of creation, and a theory of the afterlife. 2) Evolution is theory not law. 3) Yes, I do feel that Christians are persecuted. They aren't as persecuted as badly here as in, say, Sudan. But, they do get it worse than atheists. 4) I know all about the Jesus Seminar. And without getting into the details of it, I'll just say I don't have a high regard for it. 5) Jeff, I must say I'm skeptical of many of the things you assert (as is my nature). I can't say if you are right or wrong since I have not done the research you have or addressed myself to the same subjects you have. In true Marxist form, I think you must be a least somewhat right. But knowing everywhere else we disagree, I suspect I'd disagree with you on the conclusions you've come to concerning the history you've studied. ------------------
Mr. Valdez: Aw, come on! Can't you email me the Church of Atheism or something? That is not fair. Ugh, now who can I disagree with? ------------------ rimbaud post-a-thon 2000
rimbaud: I got a million of 'em! Actually, with regard to prayer, that is true of "Christian" prayer but not of Jewish prayer. Of course, Christianity didn't exist until after Jesus. Jewish prayer was markedly different. As for other books, I made a mistake on the Thich Nhat Hanh books (not to mention the spelling of his name!!!). The two books he wrote are: Living Buddha, Living Christ - essentially a comparison of the two living traditions of Christianity and Buddhism and how the two intersect. Jesus and Buddha as Brothers - a continuation of how Jesus and Buddha shared beliefs and ideals. The other book I thought of was: Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings by Marcus Borg (editor) - he also wrote a great book called Metting Jesus Again for the First Time. The Parallel Sayings is a terrific comparison of the sayings of Buddha and Jesus as taken from the Bible and the Dharmapada (the teachings of Buddha). it is set up like a parallel edition Bible with Jesus' sayings on one side and Buddha's on the other. I could not find "Jesus as A Rebel" anywhere but I am certian that is the title. It is not "Jesus the Rebel" which I found on Amazon. Another intriguing read I just found but haven't picked up yet is The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus by Earl J. Doherty. It got great reviews and looks fascinating. This is part of the very popular study of the historical Jesus being done now that includes the study I mentioned. ------------------ "No one gets out ALIVE!" SaveOurRockets.com
Jeff, I just also have to add that your post (actually that was 2 posts ago) was one of the most interesting and informative sets of text (article??) I have read in a long time. And all within a bastketball dicscussion forum, who says sports can't lead to an education. Thanks for posting on the matter. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited May 12, 2000).]
Really all science is theory--virtually all philosophers of science now agree there are no "universal laws". If you going to teach science (which I think you should), evolution should be part of it, as should the theory of relativity, the big bang, and many other theories. However, creationism did not derive from the scientific methods (observation, isolation, experimentation, etc.,--depending on the sub-field, that determines what is science, not some pretense in being grounded in truth or some reality), thus it should not be part of science instruction (could be taught in other disciplines though). Of course it would be nice to preface all such scientific instruction that in time today's theories will likely show themselves to be incomplete or limited. Even Newton's "laws", in which there was likely the most overconfidence (or arrogance if you wish) by scientists in it being universal, was shown to be limited by Einstein. As for atheism being dominant in the culture, I certainly don't see that at all. I seriously doubt we will see an avid "atheist" president or congressman in the 20 years. Also, I don't know the proportion in congress who aren't Protestant or catholic, I would think there is a major under-representation of such persons (e.g., Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, Unitarians) in positions of power (including school-boards) throughout the nation. I suppose the majority in proportion and power (Christians) could discriminate against themselves, but the history of in-groups with such power would suggest this is most atypical. ------------------
