^ How is GW Bush's claim to acting like a Christian more or less justified than your own? Not saying this to bash but it does seem like any claim to a Biblical moral absolute seems relative depending on what Christian you talk to. Real_Egal mentioned that in a Christian view one's relationship to God is personal. In that case could it be that GW Bush's relationship to God encourages him to act in a way that you and others might consider sinful but that he considers to be justified? In other words that one's relationship to God is relative at least from the human perspective.
you have to teach a kid right from wrong. the natural tendency is selfishness. you have to teach a kid to share. in the congo right now, 8 tribes are making war on one another. women are repeatedly raped...tons of people have been brutally murdered. are you and i more evolved than them??? is there something intrinsically better about us?? or, in the same context, might we act the same. that screwed up stuff...that's what Christians call sin. you'll hear many refer to it as individual acts. that's not really it. it's the jacked up beast inside you that wants only for itself. in the buddhist tradition, it's the urge to possess, i believe. that's what we're talking about.
obviously rhester is saying this from his own viewpoint...i viewpoint i agree with, by the way. i don't think he's throwing an absolute out. i think he's saying he understands a follower of jesus christ to have different characteristics than what he sees in GWB.
^ In Buddhism there isn't the concept of "sin" as an offense to a higher power but there is Karma which states that how you act comes back to you so if you act in a way that is kind and compassionate kindness and compassion returns to you and if you act with hate and violence hatred and violence return to you. The very nature of Karma though is relative and requires the consideration of context in terms of action. "Sin" from what I my understanding here seems to be more of an absolute and while yes there are severity of sins any sin is an offense to God, but at the same time any sin can be forgiven also. Actions aren't considered offensive to a higher power in Buddhism in and of themselves but can lead to bad of good things to yourself. Whether you lead a good or moral life has no impact on a higher power as that higher power, if there is one, will continue on unaffected by you. Mr Meowgi can probably comment on this more than I can. The Christian concept though to me seems to be that if you sin not only will you suffer damnation but God is affected by it since such action is offensive to God. The question I have then is since God is all knowing and omnipotent while humans are limited is the determination of sin relative to humans as being limited the individual relationship to God is relative since we can only approach God from a limited POV? I don't know if I'm phrasing that well but will try to clarify it later.
i think i'm not being clear. buddhism talks about getting rid of the desire to possess things...to control things. i think that's very similar to what Christians are talking about with sin. this part inside us that wants to serve ourselves FIRST. i'm not sure i understand your question. i see sin as seperation between man and God. i believe it's really that simple. it's me choosing my will over God's will.
This is going to sound kind of strange, and I hope this doesn’t muddle this conversation up too much, and I don’t have a high level of confidence that I’m right on this, but I kind of think GWB might actually be a Christian. Let me hasten to add that this doesn’t mean that I think his actions as president have by and large been Christian, because I fully agree with rhester and Max that I don't think they have been. But, and this may just be a naive outsider’s perspective, on certain occasions I think I’ve see a genuine compassion for people in him. The one incident that really gives me doubts about my perception of that was his response to what was happening in NOLA after Katrina hit. There was clearly great suffering going on there and it just didn’t seem to me that he cared, and when he did it seemed to be for political reasons and not because he had a heart for what was happening to the people. Now, let me be very clear again that I completely disagree with him politically. Particularly w.r.t. the Iraq situation I think he may well have committed war crimes and that I think he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for what he’s done there. Your next question is probably, how do I reconcile all this? The short answer is that Christians aren’t perfect and sometimes they can be horribly wrong in things they do without really understanding it. I suspect GWB grew up in a bubble, a privileged and very isolated bubble, and I think he was taught to believe certain things without having any experience in the world that would either confirm or deny them for him. Even his business “success” seems to be the result of people investing in him in order to gain influence with his family rather than any ability on his part. So I think he’s dramatically out of touch with the real world and has been largely used as a figurehead who has been steered into certain positions by his inner circle. I think he knows enough to understand that he shouldn’t have done the things he’s done, mind you, but I don’t think he understands the magnitude and gravity of what he’s done. Although as I said above, this could easily be a naive outsider’s viewpoint and I could be dead wrong about his motives. And that brings me to the higher level question in your post. I think most Christians would agree that there is a right and wrong, but they also would agree that none of us has a perfect understanding of what it is. We’re all fallible in our understandings. Are Bush and/or Rumsfeld fighting evil, or is one or both of them evil themselves? This brings us back to the discernment vs. judgment issue. We are never to judge someone else because we don’t have the ability or the authority to do that. We are all fallible and we are God’s creations, not Gods ourselves. To judge someone else is to try to elevate yourself to God’s level and pretend that you have the authority to judge his creations. From a Christian standpoint, that’s about as bad as it gets. We are, however, to discern what’s right and wrong and make decisions based on our best judgement. As we learn more and more about God and ourselves and we grow spiritually we do get better at this. There is a continual process of a-ha! type realisations where we come to understand past flaws in our perceptions and understandings, (unfortunately this is not always straight line growth and often proceeds in a two steps forward and one step back manner), but we can never claim perfection in our understandings. As a Christian I can never tell you what is right and wrong. I can only tell you what I believe is right and wrong, and the only thing that I can absolutely guarantee you is that not everything I tell you will be correct, because I am not God and I am a fallible human being and I have flaws in my perceptions and understandings. I can, and given half a chance will, tell you things that I believe with all my heart to be true, but at the end of the day you have to discern for yourself what parts of what I’ve said ring true to you, or mostly true perhaps, and which other parts of what I’ve said you sense are either somewhat or completely off the mark. So the spiritual transformation comes from a personal submission to, and connection with, God at the spirit level. From there we are spiritually reborn and begin a life of living by that new spirit and learning and growing, all of which has its great challenges and great rewards. A church is a place where people who have similar understandings come together to share and learn from each other and help each other through their struggles, and to reach out to the broader community from that spirit that lives within us. A good church is a great thing and I dearly miss my great little non-denominational church that ultimately did not survive the departure of our long time pastor. The Bible is of course a very important resource too but it needs to be interpreted and read in the greater context of the whole Bible. Much of what you hear that claims to be a literal interpretation of the Bible is not in fact a literal interpretation of the Bible. Again, you really need to read it yourself. To make matters more complicated, as your spiritual growth continues you understanding of the Bible gets deeper and deeper so that you can go back to parts you’ve read years before and see layers of meaning that went right past you before. Discussing it with others is a very good thing to do too, but again ultimately you need to look at all your inputs and decide for yourself what resonates as true within you. I feel like I’ve been rambling, but I hope I’ve addressed your question somewhere in there. If not, ask again and I’ll take another shot.
Sorry Sishir, I have not been myself lately after watching David Carr and the Texans on Sunday, I rarely get home from church in time to watch a game and my first Texans game turned into a stomach ache and a headache. In my opinion a follower of Christ is like a grape vine. If someone tells you that it is a grape vine but you get poison berries instead of grapes off the vine, then something isn't right. If you get grapes, then often no one has to explain to you it is a grape vine. I'm just not getting grapes from the White House-
Sin is sin. It is equal. But "small sin" definitely can lead to greater sin... Little Bobby steals from Ma & Pa shop, and grows up to be Skilling when sin is left unchecked. This is why it is imperative to understand that the nature of man is sinful, and learn to avoid sin. Scripture spells out the lessons that need to be learned to prevent the sinful nature of man from taking full residence in the heart... The trick is to learn the majority of the lessons from reading and teaching, thus making the first-hand experiential knowledge of sin minimal. Is it a sin to eat cake? No. In excess, very possibly... And more so to certain individuals... "work out your own soul's Salvation in fear and trembling" - So in some cases a solid, "Yes." But others may have different limits. I feel that the body is to be treated as the temple of the Holy Spirit... so many, many, many believers, myself included could stand to "repent" in certain habits... With all sin comes consequences, some take gradual effect, some are more like no-brainers. Some are fully discernible. As advertised if you will. For the diabetic, the one that knows for sure eating that cake may kill them, I'd say it's a sin to gamble with their life. For the kid on his 5th birthday wanting a third piece during an obvious relaxation of the eating "rules" on that special day.. not so much. God allows for celebration - in everything, for everything their is a season. Is it a sin to commit murder. Definitely. It's on the top ten list. Is it a sin to steal the 5 cent bubble gum? Yes. Is it just as bad as stealing $24 million? Yes. We put the "weight" or "rank" on the sin. But all sin was paid for on one Cross (in my views, according to the Bible)... therefore all had the same price, or "weight" or "rank" in Heaven's eyes. As for the first example with the cake... Once we are aware that something may harm us, and we do it anyway... it could be sinful. "To him who knows to do right, and does it not... to him it is sin." There are sins of disobedience and sins of omission. Both things we blatantly do, knowing they are sinful. And things we choose not to do, and we know that we should. The thing we must grasp hold of is the issue of God's grace. It is sufficient for us... in other words it is all we need to have forgiveness... however, Grace is not a "debit card" that allows us to consistently need more forgiveness for the same things over and over. However, we find our struggles in this life are often along similar, if not exactly the same, lines. And that's where God's Mercy comes in. And it endures forever. Simply put, the sooner we know what sin is, literally, as in how to know what it is, and what is actually recorded as sin... the better of a chance in life we'll have to avoid it, and/or learn how to live as sin-free as possible. Just remember this... Confess to whom? To Him. Directly. Just talk to God, in Jesus' name. btw- I have to ask forgiveness quite often. Anyone who says they don't need to do that, while professing a belief in Christ, is either a)not telling you the truth, or they b)don't get out much, don't have any contact from the outside world (TV, internet, paper, etc.), and don't see, hear, touch, taste, or smell. p.s.s.- for those that have said to judge another is wrong, you may need to read the text again. If this is true... why then does anyone tell someone they need to accept Jesus? Yet this is the Great Commission... to proclaim the good news of Jesus, and make disciples. Also found in Luke, FWIW.... This thing Jesus is warning of is simply this... If you judge, you'll be judged... and watch how you do it.. with what level of severity, because you'll be judged with that same severity. Luke says it like this... In other words, it's all cause and effect. Whatch how you treat someone, it will be done to you. Don't be surprised when you catch the same thing you throw out. What you sow, you reap. Plant turnip seeds, harvest turnips. If we cannot judge at all, we cannot tell others of their need for Him. There are ways, however, of sharing Jesus without being judgemental. The attitude many fall prey to is the legalistic one (afore mentioned in this thread at length). And then you have Jesus words on down there in Matthew 7 about the plank in the eye, and the Golden rule... Just like in Luke... what you do to others, will be done to you. So just invest in your future by doing as you'd like done to you. Capeeesh?
Thanks for your post IROC it. I certainly largely agree with most of it. I do see some things a little differently, though, so in the interests of good discussion here’s what I see differently: I most certainly believe that we learn a lot from the Bible, but I don’t see the focus for a Christian being about learning how not to sin, at lest not directly. Indirectly I do agree that that’s exactly what happens, but I think that it comes from us growing in our relationship with God and growing in our understandings and awarenesses and changing from the inside out. For me the other approach carries the dangers that people will mechanistically try to comply with OT law, but God is concerned about our relationship with him and where our hearts are at first and foremost. 1 Corinthians 13 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (As a footnote, I just nailed myself for some of my recent attitudes when I re-read this passage, and this kind of thing is a big part of how reading the Bible works for me.) Further on in Matthew 7 it says: 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Remember that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. So it’s not the things you do that have value in God’s eyes. It’s your relationship with him that matters. Now, from a healthy relationship with him comes the good fruit and the good fruit tends to produce good deeds, so by no means does everyone who “prophesies and does miracles” not know God, of course. The point is that these are not the things to be pursued. It’s the relationship with God that is to be pursued, and if you pursue the good deeds and not relationship with him then he may well say to you one day, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” That’s powerful stuff. The other part of your post I see differently is the part on judgment. I don’t think judging anyone personally is part of spreading the good news. As soon as we point a finger at someone else we are pointing it at ourselves. Romans 2 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? Jesus told us to be the salt and light of the earth: Matthew 5 Salt and Light 13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. 14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. For me this is about the spirit we should live by and how by doing that people will see that Spirit of God in us, which is quite a different picture for me that someone going around pointing fingers at people and judging them. Whether there is a place for the fire and brimstone approach at all is an unresolved question for me, I’ll admit. I don’t think a mere man can ever judge another mere man, but whether the fire and brimstone message as a general warning to a crowd in a sermon or teaching can be appropriate I’m not certain about. I think it's been generally acknowledged that it has been horribly abused to manipulate and control people in the past. The question I would ask, however, and this is one I would very much like a hear your opinion on if you wouldn’t mind, is does the fire and brimstone approach lead anyone to a relationship with God, even if it only appeals to certain kinds of people, or does it just lead people to attempt to comply with Old Testament law and not seek a relationship with God? Do you know anyone who has been brought to a personal relationship with God by hearing fire and brimstone sermons?
