Reflections on the Rockets and the Mo Taylor trade.

I really don't think Mo would be playing. Even now.

 

no !

we will miss Howard, but Mo was not the answer

people, let us not forget...

we tried Mo as a starter - he was part of that 6-11, team gutless, crew...

 

....when you consider it is like 5 points and 3 rebounds more than what we get from Vin Baker and Moochie, and one extra freed up roster spot, I'd take it.

Some of us didn't like the trade, not because we were that fond of Mo, but because we got completely worthless players in return and left our 4 spot woefully thin. All for 1 year of major savings two years down the line while we watch Mooch and Baker draw salary next year while they take up two spots on IR.

Yes at a minimum we should have waited until the offseason, after we had a chance to have a viable back-up/alternative to JH. This decision blew up on our face.

Well, I say bring on the Spurs in round 1. Either a quick exit or some excitement before our eventual playoff loss.

Then start the shopping list for available 4s for next season.

 

blew up in their face ?!?!

you are giving Howard too much credit


I guess you like having an $8 million forward that can't rebound ...

come on - Mo had the chance as a starter and blew it he was awful - I doubt he would help now (Mo has SF3 disease - he needs the ball too much for this team)

as for the trade, let me explain why it was good

You trade for 2 players because it breaks does TWO things

1) it gets rid of that awful 2nd year on Mo's contract (and actually next year's hit is a little less since Baker and Mooch together make a little less than Mo)

2) (now stay with me here) - you WANT 2 players for Mo, so you can BREAK THE CONTRACT into movable parts. You now have TWO, smaller, easier to move , expiring contracts available in a year with a new collective bargaining agreement. (instead of ONE contact that is outrageously burdonsome)

the Rockets problems are - Wesley's shooting, James' layups, Padgett's 3's... and Sura's temper

Yao and Tmac are fine - Spoon and Bowan can handle the 4 spot - but the shooter have to hit hte shots

 

For the last friggin time, MoT would not have helped the situation we are in right now!!! If MoT was still a Rocket right now, he'd be sitting on the bench getting Vin Baker's minutes (zero), and we would still have a 3 game losing streak....

What has MoT done in the past that makes a few think here that he would have helped us win games in the present?

Just because the guy has some decent offensive skills doesn't mean he would have made a difference (like he made any difference in the past).

As far as not liking what we got in return for the trade, consider what we were offering....

 

This is horrible logic. Mo, in his last weeks with the Rockets, was averaging exactly what Baker/Moochie's averaging now, 0 ppg 0 rpg. If he were on this team, he'd still be lower on the depth chart than Weatherspoon, Padgett, and Bowen. Which makes his contribution still ZERO. NY is only playing him because they suck, have no chemistry, and trying out new players for the sake of doing so.

The trade is good because we get some expiring contracts next year.

 

You don't think our team is significantly better with Howard than with Spoon/Bowen/Padget having to man all the 4 minutes. Are you serious?

Hey I don't like an $8 million guy who can't rebound, but I like that better than $7 million for two guys who can't do ANYTHING and take up roster spaces.

Yeah, teams were lining up for Vin and Mooch. Mo is overpayed but can do some things on the basketball court, these two are overpayed guys who can wave towels and slap behinds.

No they can't. Our 4 spot will spell our doom this year, no question.

If JVG had not given MoT another chance after JH went down (after all accoridng to JVG he traded him because MoT was so similar to JH) than that would say more about JVG's priorities than it would about MoT's capabilities. I personally think JVG cares more about maximizing his chances to win than delivering personal messages and would play MoT if he had him now--he would be by far the best option if we had him now. This should be obvious to anyone with half a clue.

That was when we had JH (who JVG said was a very similar player). Now we don't. See the previous point for further about if JVG would play MoT in the current situation.

You question my logic above, then talk about getting expiring contracts 2 years down the line as "value". How about this, we gave up a tremendous expiring contract in 07 by doing this trade, what a lost oppertunnity!!! Doesn't make sense, does it. Bottom line is MoT, Vin and Mooch all had terrible contracts. But of the 3 only one is good enough to play ANY minutes in the NBA. He also happens to play our position that is a most dreadfull state and will seal our fate for this year sooner or later. We got a 2nd rounder and saved basically 1 year off of MoT's contract to fill our roster with 2 guys who will never see the light of day in the NBA, again.

Time to build for next offseason, hope the rest of the guys can gives us a few thrills in round 1, maybe Yao and Tmac can steal a series with herculian efforts. Yeah sooner or later the other weaknesses will catch up, but give us a good ride. That is about the highest expectation I have left. I say bring on the Spurs!!!

 

We've gone through this way too much.

You don't put a guy on the inactive roster while guys like Barrett, Strickland, and Bowen are active because he's similar to someone else. If Taylor got beat out that badly by Howard, that should tell you something.

JVG's actions made it pretty clear Taylor was 5th on the depth chart behind Spoon, Bowen, and Padgett when the trade was made. He had been sitting inactive for a month for crying out loud.

After what we've seen, Mo Taylor probably would've been given a shot to climb back up the depth chart (so was Vin Baker). If he played like he has for the Knicks (he has 9 games with 0-2 points vs. 3 double digit games), he wouldn't be playing now.

Whether you want to put that on JVG is up to you, but the fact was Dawson had to make moves with what he had. Taylor was not going to climb up the depth chart, so as far as Dawson was and should have been concerned, he was a zero. Trading him for a 2nd rounder and 2 zeros who will make 10 million less is a no brainer. Who is that roster space costing us? Give me a moment to lament the loss of Andre Barrett. I also think you're undervaluing the 10 million saved. 10 million saved is 10 million in flexibility that we can now viably take on. I've gone over how this deal re-arranged the salary structure of our team- we had around 22 mill allotted to PFs next year, and still needed to upgrade the spot. Now we're down closer to 15 mill, and the following year have dropped from ~16 mill to ~6 mill. It certainly gives CD something to point to make acquiring a PF with a long term contract via trade or the MLE much more palatable.

Like I said, you can put it on JVG, depending on your opinion of Taylor...but I would bet a lot of money Taylor would NOT have been the first fallback option when Howard went down.

 

Howard > Bowen, Spoon, Mo, Vin and Padge
Bowen, Padge and Spoon > Mo
every starting PF in the league > ANY of the Rockets PFs (including Howard)

conclusion: losing Howard is bad, but not trading Mo would not have helped, since replacing soft for softer makes you worse.

...and since when does Mo get a "second" chance ?! He had been on this team for four years and hasn't earned a nickel of that contact.

- Hurts himself in a pick up game and sits a YEAR

- disappears behind the train wreck Griffin on the depth chart

- gets a chance to start over Howard and blows it

- scores 5 pts a game in New York

- oh yeah, and don't forget a couple of drug suspensions

The last time Mo Talyor played well enough to earn $7 million a year, he was wearing a Clippers jersey

...and btw it's not an $8 million dollar player its a $17 million player for a $4million and a $3 million player. That $10 million will help re-sign Yao (without incurring a luxury tax).

 

I really want to reiterate the LOSER point. Not trying to be harsh on MoT, at times I've seen him play hard and actually have decent games, but our team still didn't do anything. Again some players are just those type....who'll get decent stats but at the end of the day your team still lost. His kind has always been around the NBA, they pile up stats but don't help the bottomline W stat. I'm sure others can help name the quintessential LOSER type of players, Adrian Dantley comes to my mind (sure he got traded from the Pistons right before they won their first ring, but that let's you know what the Pistons thought of him...ok, that and Isiah schemed to get his buddy Mark Aguirre on his team). SAR is another player that comes to my mind, which is why I always wondered why some here were infatuated with him becoming a Rocket.

Mo Taylor = LOSER

 

I'm calling bull****. Mo and JVG obviously didn't get along and that's serious. But, at this point, Mo would be playing. And he'd be playing enough to get JH style numbers.

Yes, when the offense was clicking and the guards were making their shots, Mo would have been a non-factor. But when we're desperate for offense wherever we can find it, it would be nice to have a guy who does that. And Mo does that.

It was a good trade. It was a great trade. But knowing what we know now about Howard's health -- even knowing what we know about JVG and Mo hating each other, and they did -- the trade is at least in question.

Mo Taylor's not consistent and he sucks on the other end of the floor, but once in while he gives you 15 points as your third option. That's what we've been missing. Not a 4, not a shooter -- a third option. Mo was good for that. And if we go to 7 instead of 6 because Wesley/Barry/Sura/James suddenly forgot how to be that and because Juwan's injured, the trade's in question. This team is old and the time for this team is this year and next year. And if one loss means the Nugs get 6 and we get 7, the advantage of shaving a year off our commitment to Taylor's out the window.

If we're all about rebuilding and shedding contracts, what are we doing with half of our current team? They'll be gone before we see the benefit of the long term plan. Again, I was all for the trade, but not to question it in the face of Juwan's loss (and in the face of playoff run) is silly. Everybody here knows Mo gave us more at the 4 than what we've got now. And everybody here (at least those who've been here a year or more) knows he could have been a decent third on offense.

 

Finally some sense in here. Like I said if JVG wouldn't have turned to MoT after what we have seen from Spoon, Bowen, and Padget than that would show a lot more about his ability to hold a grudge than his committment to putting the best team on the floor. And MoT was terribly overpayed, but he contributed to a number of Rocket wins last year and probably had he been benched like this year or injured over a long period we miss the playoffs and Utah is in.

And yes MoT does not play a lot of minutes for NY (though I would take 16 minutes and 5.6 PPG and 3 RPG on 50% shooting--that certainly can't be called inefficient and show he can still be effective), and he didn't play a lot of minutes once JH got in a groove. But captain obvious, we don't have JH--the reason this thread was started, AND we don't have group of guys who can share the 4 burden like Kurt Thomas, Sweetney, Tim Thomas, Malik Rose and Jerome Williams. Hell, MoT or any of those five would be getting the bulk of the Rockets 4 minutes if we had them, and our group of Spoon, Bowen and Padget would get infinetly less than 16MPG on the Knicks MoT gets--if you can figure out what I am saying here with some basic algebra.

NIKEstrad, I appreciate your effort to focus on finances and take the perspective of CG/JVG. But IMO they did a bad move at the time of the move, and now of course it looks very bad. Further, JVG said himself the primary reason was the JH made MoT redudent. While we had JH available to fill the bulk of the minutes we didn't lose much diving up the rest of the minutes to Pagdet, Spoon and Bowen--that dynamic totally changed when JH went down because now you have to play starting caliber 4s with those guys for heavy minutes. All they had to do was wait until the offseason to ship MoT out once we were able to get another servicable PF to share the burden with JH. Yeah we might not got quite as good a deal, but risk-reward involved would have been a lot less, and we paid dearly on the risk side with what has happened with JH. MoT simply would have offered us a chance this year we now don't have. That isn't worth 10 mil and a 2nd rounder in my book.

 

The ONLY thing Taylor would give us would be to keep teams from ignoring the PF to double Yao and Tracy. While not an insignificant contribution, you have to ask yourself if that alone is worth passing up the opportunity to unload $30 million dollars over the next three years for a TOTALLY one dimensional and self centered player.

 

Personally, I am not that high on James. He is a good scorer, but he's the most one-dimensional "point" I've ever seen. The guy has absolutely zero passing intuition and does not make any of the other players a lick better...other than the fact that he can (maybe) create some spacing with his jumper. I hope we're not counting on this guy to be a featured player or designated replacement for Sura next season.

IMO, we STILL need a lead guard, as well as a PF. The player I would love to fill the PG void is Earl Watson, a tough-minded, defensive-oriented, pass-first orchestrator. I would also love to see Brevin Knight in a Rox uni.

 

Taylor wasn't having a good year, but neither was anyone else while he was starting. The first game he was benched just so happened to be the first game McGrady went off for 48 and the season turned around. Prior to that, McGrady and pretty much everyone else played terrible. Don't try to tell me this was because of Mo Taylor. He played well under Rudy when completely healthy and played pretty good under Gundy as well last year. The only time he really sucked was when the whole team also sucked.

The difference between being over the cap and a little bit less over the cap is not a big one in my opinion. There are ALWAYS ways to improve your team, which this team has done this year multiple times, and almost every other team in the league does routinely while ALL being over the cap.

 

Weatherspoon since becoming a starter...

15.2 mpg
5.3 ppg with 44 fg% 83 ft%
4.6 rpg
0.12 turnovers per game

Compare this with Taylor's since he became a Knick. They both played similar minutes. Weatherspoon's not as good shootingwise, but make it up by average more FTs per game than Taylor, while shooting it much better(83% to 61%). Weatherspoon's a superior rebounder. He's also much less turnover prone because of he doesn't demand the ball.

I just can't understand why there's such a fascination with Mo Taylor. The guy sucks. He can't even be considered superior to an old, fat non-rotation player. The Rockets might need help at the four, but they certainly isn't going to get it with Taylor.

 

Exactly. The "I want Mo back hindsight" is a replay of the short-sighted screaming over shipping out Glen Rice and a draft pick (which turned into Kirk Snyder) for a trade exception. No one stops to connect the dots.

We used the Rice TE in the Francis deal and got another smaller TE with a later expiration date. I guess no one bothers to figure out that you can't trade Reece Gaines @$1.2m for Mike James @ $3.1m and Zendon Hamilton @ $720k without one. IOW, no Rice TE...no Mike James.

The cap flexibility game is akin to playing chess. The payoff is often many moves downstream.

 

Or is it more like trading KT and #2 for Posey and then letting Posey with the following year, and also losing the PF for whom we released KT for.

Some of you act like we can do no wrong. We have made some great moves, but our fair share of blunders too--which is why we unquestionably have the worst group of 4s in the league. While the MoT trade may not qualify as a complete blunder I didn't like it when it happened and dislike it even more now. We got 1 year of major salary savings for weaking the talent and competencies in the roster that now with JH down has effectively killed a season where we had a chance. At a minimum we should have done that deal with the Knicks after this offseason, it is not like Mooch and Vin were going to show themselves to be reborn had they stayed with the Knicks driving up their value substantially and killing any hope for a deal like this. Maybe we could not have squeezed their 2nd from them to do the deal later, but having that option at the 4 spot would have been worth it for a season where at times we looked among 5 or so teams with a real chance to be the last team standing.

The NY and Rockets stats comparisons are apples and oranges. If Spoon was on the Knicks he would get 0 minutes of importance. MoT was getting 24 MPG when JH and Spoon were healthy (before he went to the doghouse). Last year with Spoon on the roster, and no JH, he got 28 minutes. The fact Spoon is only getting 15 minutes without JH or MoT or any other servicable PF on the roster is further indicative. Right now if MoT was on the roster and we put winning 1st, he be getting 25-28MPG.

 

The rox weren't going to win the title with MoT as the starting forward, but they probly would have been more of a threat with him, BUT only cuz of Juwan's injury.


I'll wait to see if they can do something with those expiring contracts next year or the cap relief before I write off the trade as a bust.

 

You apparently have a fixation on Posey and Taylor that I don't share.

There was no way the Rockets were going to be able to pay Kenny Thomas anywhere near his market value because they had already signed Taylor to a big contract. When you've got 3 PF's and 1 is on a rookie scale contract (Griffin) and the other is near max (Taylor), KT becomes expendable.

If you overpay for Posey, you can't/don't sign Jim Jackson for half of Posey's salary and for a much shorter time. Hence, no David Wesley who can defend the PG position better than Posey and who (along with Jackson) is a much better long-range shooter than Posey. (I'm basing this on NO not wanting a re-signed Posey from Houston when they are in a salary dump mode).

This is not about the Rockets' management never making mistakes. This is about building a cost effective team around the inside presence of Yao Ming. There is little point in overpaying for Posey whose 3pt% was 37.3%, 30.0%, 28.3% & 27.3% in 4 Nuggets Lottery seasons. (16.7% in last years' playoffs).

While it's perfectly true Howard and Taylor have similar games, there's one subtle point that distinguishes 1 from the other. Taylor (like Francis) needs to dribble to get his shooting rhythm. Whatever ball and player movement the Rockets had, vanished when Mo was on the court. IOW, while his personal Rockets' stats may have been decent, his on court +/- was -3.4 while while Spoon and Padgett are +5.4 & +7.1 respectively.

The Grizz will pay Posey $5.9m and $6.4m for the next two seasons. Since MEM plays a 10-man rotation it's hard to compare stats of their players. But for ~$6m/yr, I'd expect Posey to be in at least 1 "per 48 minute" stats category. He's not in a single one.

IMVHO, you're substantially over rating both Taylor and Posey to support a personal opinion of the Rockets' management. An opinion which would have gone largely unnoticed save for a freak fall by Mike James into Juwan's knee.