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[Reason] The group formerly known as ACLU Condemns DeVos's Title IX Reforms

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    The ACLU reacts to the long-needed overhaul of the Obama "Dear Colleague" OCR letter

    https://reason.com/blog/2018/11/16/aclu-betsy-devos-title-ix-due-process

    The ACLU Condemns DeVos's Title IX Reforms, Says These Due Process Safeguards 'Inappropriately Favor the Accused'
    So much for civil liberties.

    Robby Soave|Nov. 16, 2018 12:41 pm

    It's no surprise that victims' rights activists and their allies are furious about the Education Department's proposed changes to Title IX, the federal statute that deals with sex and gender discrimination on campus.

    It is surprising, however, to see the American Civil Liberties Union joining in this chorus. The ACLU has long defended the rights of accused terrorists, criminals, neo-Nazis, and the Westboro Baptist Church. The group works tirelessly to protect due process, even for the least sympathetic among us.

    And yet the ACLU has condemned the new Title IX rules, declaring on Twitter: "The proposed rule would make schools less safe for survivors of sexual assault and harassment, when there is already alarmingly high rates of campus sexual assaults and harassment that go unreported. It promotes an unfair process, inappropriately favoring the accused and letting schools ignore their responsibility under Title IX to respond promptly and fairly to complaints of sexual violence."

    I am astonished to see the ACLU take the position that a government policy gives an accused person too many rights, especially when these rights are things the ACLU has generally supported. (In other words, they are not weird new rights invented out of thin air. These are standard protections that regrettably were not applied to campus sexual misconduct adjudication during the Obama years.)

    The Title IX reforms were announced Friday morning; they greatly strengthen due process protections for students accused of sexual misconduct, and they relieve colleges of the burden of investigating suggestive speech that should be permissible on free speech grounds.

    "The proposed regulation rightly rejects the incredibly overbroad, unconstitutional definition of sexual harassment mandated by [the Office for Civil Rights] in its 2013 'blueprint' for colleges," said Hans Bader, a senior attorney at the Competitive Enterprise Institute and former Office for Civil Rights lawyer, in an email to Reason.

    The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education is also pleased with the proposal. Samantha Harris, a vice president at the group, says "the proposed regulations are a marked improvement over the previous guidance in a number of important ways."

    Some feminist groups see matters differently. The activist organization End Rape on Campus has accused DeVos of making campuses "more dangerous" for women. Another activist group, Know Your IX, describes the new rules as "worse than we could have imagined."

    Keep in mind that the new rules—while a significant improvement—are not radical. In fact, they adhere to the principles set forth by federal "rape shield" laws, which protect victims from having to discuss their past sexual relationships during adjudication hearings. And while the new rules will indeed mandate cross-examination, they do not mandate direct cross-examination: Attorneys or support persons will do the questioning. This is a detail that many activists have overlooked in their criticism: NARAL made the false claim that DeVos would allow victims to be questioned and "re-traumatized" by their attackers, and Rep. Joe Kennedy (D–Mass.) retweeted it.

    I didn't expect an honest appraisal of the new rules from the likes of NARAL. But I did figure the ACLU might appreciate some of the nuances involved here: Protecting women from sexual misconduct is important, but so are liberal principles of justice, fairness, and the presumption of innocence.

    The ACLU recently broke with longstanding tradition to oppose the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court—and ran ads saying that Kavanaugh's denials of sexual impropriety should be dismissed, since other accused rapists like Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein also denied the charges against them. Between that and this, principles of due process and the presumption of innocence seem to be falling off the organization's radar as things that should be defended, at least when the person who needs these protections lacks sympathy from intersectional progressives.

    Even on this front, though, the critics of Title IX reform seem to forget that the students who face sexual misconduct adjudication on campus are—as best we can tell—disproportionately men of color and immigrants. Who will speak for them, if not civil liberties organizations?
     
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  2. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    As someone that knows someone that was raped in her college dorm and as someone that knows there are way too many similar instances of rape in college I don't have any sympathy with accused rapists.
     
  3. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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  4. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I think its crazy that universities are involved at all in adjudicating these things.
     
  5. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    that has been the complaint of university attorneys and police in virtually every state
     
  6. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    While there is a need for a reform that discourages false accusations, the system also needs to encourage real accusations, and her proposals go beyond that point. To say that if a woman gets sexually assaulted at an off-campus frat party, that is no longer the business of the school is ridiculous.
     
    #6 Sweet Lou 4 2, Nov 19, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  7. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    Whoa........did you just say that you don't have any sympathy with "accused" rapists? What if someone accused you of being a rapist?
     
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  8. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    I would never be in a situation that someone would accuse me of rape. And, as I indicated before, I know someone that was raped in college, so my sympathies are with the victim.
     
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  9. jcf

    jcf Member

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    I agree re: a frat party because that is a quasi (if not fully) a school sanctioned body. I don't agree if there is an allegation in a completely non-school related function that the school should have the responsibility or perogative to adjudicate it. Agree with Valdez that it should be left to authorities.
     
  10. jcf

    jcf Member

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    I know you can assert that and act in a way that no one should ever accuse you of a rape. But, as rare as it might be, I don't think you can state with 100% certitude that you would never be falsely or mistakenly accused of rape. You could go the Mike Pence route of never being alone with a woman but think of the mocking he endured for that position.

    Everybody's sympathy should be with the victim. It should also be with one who is inaccurately accused, either purposefully (however rare) or through mistaken identity.

    There are a lot of innocent people sitting in prison based upon the unreliability of eye witness testimony, and fortunately some are now getting out based upon DNA testing years later.
     
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  11. jcf

    jcf Member

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    And sorry about your friend who was raped in college. I didn't mean to be dismissive of that.
     
  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    you are asking untrained university administrators to investigate violent crimes.
     
  13. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    No worries on your subsequent post.

    While there are many things I criticize pence about, his basic message re: "not being alone with another woman" is actually following biblical advice that I myself follow... don't put yourself in a situation (in this case, a woman not your spouse) that could lead to something wrong, or that could even be misconstrued into something wrong).

    While I know there are cases of false rape accusations, what is the likelihood (or instances that happens) versus the total number of rapes? And rapes not reported? We should do more to help rape victims feel that can step forward, not less.
     
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  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    You seem to confused due process for avoiding jail with attending a university while obeying the student code of conduct.
     
  15. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    you’re right, I’m confused. Thanks for setting me straight
     
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  16. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    It's a good point. We've corresponded about this issue before, and I know that you know a lot about this via a family member who works on such cases. Much respect to you both.

    Is the following a good analogy? Is a landlord centrally involved in investigating a rape that is reported in one of his/her apartment buildings? To me, that seems a somewhat relevant question when asking if a university should be centrally involved when a rape is reported in a dormitory.

    As for the ACLU: For decades, they have frustrated what I see as common sense as many times as they've fought what looks, to me, like a good fight. But I celebrate their function in the ecosystem. I don't think throwing shade at them, in particular, makes much sense. ACLU gonna ACLU. I do think people line up automatically against DeVos for obvious reasons. (She is unfit for her job beyond any partisan argument.) But I wish people could look in a clear-headed way at this issue separate from her. The current status quo just isn't good.
     
  17. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    I don't know the answer the analogy question--but my first reaction is that the landlord is at best responsible for contacting the police and letting them take it from there. I don't see the landlord sitting down with the victim first, getting written testimony, and then moving on to interrogate the accused and create a record that can be used later in court proceedings. How does a landlord get trained to do that? Universities are obviously in a somewhat different situation: sometimes they are the landlord, sometimes they are trying to investigate incidents that occur in off-campus housing or nationally-owned fraternities/sororities. The other thing is that many of these incidents are hard to classify: this is where alcohol and "he said, she said" questions obscure a clear vision of what's happened. Again, I don't have good answers for you.

    Agree with you on the ACLU. The have been a real hit-or-miss organization in recent years. Very puzzling stances on some issues. This seems to be one of them.
     
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  18. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
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    DeVos' overhaul of Title IX is the ONE good thing she has done since she slimed her way into the Oval Office.
     
  19. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Good for the ACLU. They are doing the right thing in this case.
     
  20. HTM

    HTM Member

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    This guy knows how to deliver a compliment.
     

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