1998 was definitely his breakout series. That put him on the map. I distinctly remember the commentators praising Shandon and how he "moves so well" without the ball, makes such "precise" cuts, and how he is the perfect compliment to Stockton and Malone. The defense concentrated so much on those two, Shandon was often left alone for easy cuts to the hole. Now, that is just fundamental and smart basketball, nothing spectacular. He didn't get too many shots from the perimeter. But he did do some good boardwork in spurts. I like Shandon, but is he going to be worth what his agent asks for? Probably not. Sure, he plays tough defense, and he is capable of getting some points and a decent amount of boards for his size. The premium on glue guys is high, but is he really a glue guy? Why does he disappear in some games or stretches of games, and then come back with 21 and 10? I am bothered by his inconsistency at times. But I do think he is a good player, and I would like to see him stay. I just would like to be able to bank on him more on a game to game basis. ------------------ HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'. KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh! HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv'. [This message has been edited by HOOP-T (edited April 20, 2001).]
For me, it boils down to one simple fact... Cuttino Mobley is the starting two guard and forced Anderson to play out of position because of his numbers. Mobley is making Early Bird money. He turned down bigger numbers elsewhere to play in Houston. This is not to say NO ONE should be paid more than Cat. I think it is clear that Francis and Taylor (if he returns or Webber if he comes here) will get more. However, NO WAY does Anderson deserve more than what Mobley is making when Mobley is the guy that displaced him. If Anderson and his agent are unwilling to accept Early Bird money, I think they will have to find it somewhere else. ------------------ And then, depression set in...
HOOP-T, What do you mean "breakout series"? You are not looking at his full playoff record if you say he had a breakout series. Breakout series usually means he continues doing it in the next series, and the next year. Plus, are you talking about 1998 against Houston? I distinctly remember the commentators praising Russell much more, same with 1997. Are you sure you are not mixing some Russell comments up with Shandon? Besides, Shandon was being gaurded by a slow Elie, versus Drexler gaurding Russell. Or do you mean 1999. The Kings series. The Portland series after that put him back to disappearing in the box scores.
More RealGM Question <ul> [*]Considering that Rudy believes the 3 guard line-up of Moochie with Francis and Mobley on the wings, scores more than the Anderson variety: How much more valuable is Shandon's defense than Moochie's offense? [*]How many 6'6" defenders really can change the course of a game? imo, you must be 6'10" defensive specialist to warrant big bucks. That is why Cato got $42 million. No way Shandon is worth $42m. [*]Is a 6'9" rebounding specialist worth more than a 6'6" defensive specialist? What price is that for the rebounder?
I think especially with the zone defense next year that we need a 3 point shooter at the 3. Francis and Mobley for most of the minutes are the guards. Both of those guys can penetrate and (once they figure out there are open players on the team) be able to kick out for open jumpers. I like Shandon but he is not a good shooter. I like Shandon as a player but I just don't think he's a good fit here as a SF. I prsonally still like Mobley as the 6th man to bring offense off the bench, this letting SA play 10-12 minutes aech game at the SG, but Moochie seems to have become the 3rd guard. I love his defensive ability and I'm sure someone wuill pay him 5-6 mil/year but he is not worth that to us as a SF. I would still pay him 4-4.5 million but others will give him more. He's gone.
Isn't the REAL QUESTION here whether Shandon was given some sort of 'nudge nudge' deal when he came here. Utah offered him about $20 M more...so I doubt he comes here without a 'Joe Smith' type agreemenet (not formally)and he gets 'rewarded' now... ------------------
heypee-Cap wise, it really makes little to no difference. Shandon made 2.2 mill last year. A 1 year contract with a 12.5% raises is 2.475 mill, or .0475 more than he we would if he didn't opt out. Unrenounced, Shandon is 2.86. The difference in cap hit is 385K, and for that 385K, Shandon could be locked up longterm through Early Bird. If you renounce Shandon, you lose his bird rights. ------------------ "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure.
I think you might be missing my point. I don't want to lock up Shandon, unless we sign Webber. If we don't sign Webber, I would only offer the option price of 12.5%. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't have to renounce Shandon to free up max for Webber. I was never considering Shandon hit this summer against the cap. I'm talking about a big hit in future years, if we give him max Early Bird without signing a superstar. imo, don't give Shandon max unless you get Webber. Also, where do you get this 385K difference between the Early Bird/Middle Class Exception of $4.1m and Shandon's option price. The middle class jumps up to 108% of average salary this year. There is a roughly $1.7m price difference between the option price and average pay. Look, average pay of $4m times 12 players NEVER gets you under the cap. Some players must be paid below average until you land the superstars you need. Then everyone can be overpaid for all I care. Spend money wisely this Summer. It is our future.
partner-Are you saying go Webber or nothing (ie: not Antonio Davis or Mo, or facilitating a trade like the Clippers)? I get the 385K, because I assume we'll come close to filling the cap in other ways if we miss Webber. Signing Mo and a guy like Patterson or JYD, or Hakeem, or making a trade that comes with a talented player, and a high contract baggage player, like for example Raef Lafrentz with Abdul-Wahad. Once we get to the cap limit, Shandon is still counting at 2.86 against it, but you can go over the cap to resign Shandon to an Early Bird. Finish up your other business, then you can sign Shandon to a deal actually bigger than Cat's (due to the NBA inflation), yet as far as how much he was counting towards your other moves, it was only 2.86 mill while you were still working with other stuff. You'll be able to do the same with Moochie, but he'll only be counting a little over 500K. I feel this is gonna be the year we acquire those other main pieces, whether it is free agency, or draft. We'll be able to pick up a few roleplayers in free agency or trades in the coming years, but if we're talking another star, it'll be this year. Next year, we've got to deal with Cato's price going higher and higher, and also, next summer, I believe we can work out a long term (read: max) extension with the Franchise. Also, read my Contract Information thread about the Webber thing. We'll be able to keep Shandon if we trade our picks for future picks, or if we can manage to send Walt or Cato off and take back less in return (like to Chicago). ------------------ "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure. [This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited April 21, 2001).]
NIKEstrad, I'm not in this thread to discuss speculation on what to do with all our money. This is about Shandon's value only. I did not say Webber or bust. As a GM, your goal should be the opposite of every agent--pay as little as possible to get what you want. If we get Webber, all bets are off, and I immediately would go into "lock everyone down" mode. If we don't get Webber, I would be frugal with everyone, and in Shandon's case, I would call Fegan's bluff and only offer 1 yr at the original option price and preserve Shandon's Full Bird. I would spend the least amount of cap space as possible on Shandon, unless we landed Webber. I would revisit Shandon's contract next summer. that's what I'd do. I never said Webber or bust.
heypartner-I'm still not understanding you. Salary wise, the difference between getting one 12 million dollar player (Webber), and a pair of 6 million dollar players is the same. Our salary situation would be the same. I don't see how it effects Shandon's contract, assuming we want him back, whether we lock him down this year to Early Bird, or next year. I would spend the least amount of cap space as possible on Shandon, unless we landed Webber. I would revisit Shandon's contract next summer. The difference in cap space between resigning Shandon as you say "frugally" at 2.4 mill to get him bird rights, and resigning him at the end of our offseason to an all out Early Bird is minimal. You're talking the difference him counting 2.86 million while waiting for us to do our thing with our cap space before he gets his max Early Bird (or whatever), and 2.4 million. Less than 500K difference, which will more than likely not be the difference in our offseason post Webber. The reason I thought you were saying Webber or Bust, is because it sounded like you were saying if we miss on Webber, not to spend our cap space, and try again next season, which would be the one scenario that it would truly matter between spending the Early Bird on Shandon this year, and convincing him to wait on it for an extra year. In case you were wondering, if we do get Shandon to sign at 2.4, next offseason he'll count at 4.8 million against the cap (200%). That's probably more than he'd be getting in an Early Bird going into his 2nd year. ------------------ "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure.
The days of great man to man defenders is over. Walt and Rogers are in the last year of their contracts, so if the rockets don't sign Anderson or Webber they will have more flexibility. Webber is worth a lot of flexibility. Anderson isn't producing at the three. Anderson is an average two who may have trouble adjusting to the zone. Backpay? Anderson lost his job! He was good enough to win Walt's job, but don't lose sight that he's playing in a position he doesn't play well since he losses his advantages he has at the 2. The rockets will draft two threes that are better than SA at this position this year, IMO. What's a third string SG (Francis is second string) worth? Not even worth a roster spot. The rockets need players that will work with Francis. Anderson was good his first season with the rockets, he did the best patchwork at the 3 this year that he could, and he would be a nice addition to the rockets in about 4 years when he gets a little more Elie in him. The rockets will have better options next year assuming the draft, FA, and/or trades produces a starting 3 and a cheap backup that plays the 2/3 with a wing span. I am for a three guard lineup for the rockets, but Anderson isn't "guard" enough to take its advantages. With Cap room and the 13th pick, I will be pissed off if Anderson is still the best or second best three on the team. I can't tell you how mad I would be to see Anderson starting next year. ------------------
NIKE, There is a big difference between 2 $6m and 1 $12m player. Why even say something like "salary wise" they are the same? Who cares? Two average players does not make a Webber. And NIKE, the maximum Early Bird is $4.2m or so. Shandon's contract next yr is for $2.4. Would you please do the math correctly.
Joe Joe -- Ha Ha!! You are going to be furious! That's so funny! Who's going to come in and take Shandon's spot, Jason Collier's younger brother? Just who do you think the Rockets are going to draft that is good enough to start ahead of a guy that has one of the longest current strings of games started in the NBA? The Rockets had the 9th pick last year, and look what they got! Get ready to be disappointed dude! Anderson isn't producing at the 3? We won 45 freakin games! The only reason Anderson doesn't start at the 2 still is WALT SUCKS! The Rockets need players that will work with Francis? True, but the Rockets FIRST need Francis to work with ALL the players! Not just Mobley! And Francis WANTS Anderson to stay! He said so -- he said he's going to be on him all off-season to stay! "I can't tell you how mad I would be to see Kenny Smith starting next year." "I can't tell you how mad I would be to see Vernon Maxwell starting next year." "I can't tell you how mad I would be to see Chucky Brown starting next year." You don't think people have said these things before? It's a TEAM game, hotshot! If Francis doesn't become the best player in the league, we don't win! End of story. Oh, and Webber is not coming here. ------------------ "I'll be gettin real drunk and making fun of everybody"
NIKE, Maybe I have an simpler way to state it: We must look at the difference between the current contract's 3rd yr (my offer of $2.4m for 1 yr to attain Full Bird rights) and the maximum Fegan can expect to get for Shandon...which is realistically a max Early Bird from us, although technically we could pay him $9m. So, as agent, Fegan will ask for more than Early Bird, and as GM, I will ask for the 3rd yr originally signed. If we sign Webber, I will give Shandon 7 yrs at $4.1 starting. If we don't sign Webber, I will offer the 3rd yr of the contract and a reevaluation next summer under Full Bird rights..."You understand Shandon. We need money to surround you with stars."
Getting hammered on the boards limited the rockets to 45 wins. I can't see the rockets running three weak rebounding frontcourt players next season. I assume Mo will be back and Olajuwon won't be or will be in a limited role. ------------------
andonshe inksste shandon anderson = lawrence moten shandon anderson = stacey augmon shandon anderson = elie "-" shooting shandon anderson = bench player shandon anderson = trade bait to a foolish team. TheFreak or anyone else, can you think of another nba team that shandon could start @ SG? seriously? i can't andonshe inksste
Shandon would start for the Nets, T-Wolves and the Nuggets, and several more. Of course getting Webber is better than getting 2 mediocre players. I am doing the math correctly. I was referring to next offseason, Shandon would have made 2.4 million (01-02), and as a Larry Bird free agent, if we were looking for cap room next year, he'd count as 4.8 million (unrenounced/unsigned). Meanwhile if we Early Birded him this year, his contract going into 02-03 (next offseason) would be 4.725 mill, assumed 4.2 mill first year with a 12.5% increase going into his 2nd year. Basically, getting him at 2.4 this year, the only way it helps you acquire a star is if you remain under the cap, and can make a trade DURING the season. ------------------ "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure. [This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited April 21, 2001).]
NIKE, You said he'd count $2.8m I said $4.1m according to Fegan getting max this year. Where is the math differential?
