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Real data that sign stealing didn’t help Astros

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by vince, Nov 11, 2022.

  1. vince

    vince Member

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    I found a good article from Duke university that examined scientifically the sign stealing scheme orchestrated in 2017. Per the data the scheme didn’t help the Astros, and may have hurt them on the field. Because of course it hurt them in the public square. But I think it’s the science that essentially boosted the confidence of all but the salty Dodgers and Yankees to confirm the 2017 title was as legit as any title. Every team was forced to vote if the 2017 was going to be legit or not; and it was ruled it would be 100% legit.

    Manford probably wanted a different outcome than what the teams determined, and why he left the Astros as the only face of sign stealing, when he too knew the facts. Essentially being left as the scapegoat and the jeer and sneers of National fans. All other team involved where handled discretely and as privately with little media attention.

    https://today.duke.edu/2020/07/did-cheating-actually-help-houston-astros-win-world-series
     
  2. astroa89

    astroa89 Member

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    Still on about this are we? :rolleyes:
     
  3. astroa89

    astroa89 Member

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    Winning the title this year puts that narrative to rest that they only won because they allegedly "cheated." Anyone still bringing it up after all this time is just a hater.
     
  4. vince

    vince Member

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    added a resource because there are too many trolls on the internet calling into question the 2017 title.

    Hence, it’s only a resource for anyone who needs a real quote.
     
    Stephen66 likes this.
  5. BlindHog

    BlindHog Member

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    If we all stop talking about this and ignore those who continue it will go away. The attention span necessary to continue picking at this scab is limited to a very few affected individuals who persist only to get a response.
     
  6. jayfree

    jayfree Member

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    That's what Kevin Spacey said ;)
     
  7. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    The fans who want to ride the Astros jock do not pay attention to "real data".
     
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  8. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Mineshaft Enthusiast

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    We have known this for years, btw.
     
    msn, Rock Block, BigM and 2 others like this.
  9. marks0223

    marks0223 2017 and 2022 World Series Champions
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    LA Times ran this story as well in 2020.

     
  10. Astrofan59

    Astrofan59 Member

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    Didn't make a difference to Dodger fans then, and it doesn't make a difference to the Astro haters now
     
  11. Marshall Bryant

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    It doesn't go away. It become normalized.
     
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  12. panamamyers

    panamamyers Member

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    Everyone knew that it didn't help them back then. It's just like the mainstream media at large. Rosenthal has now moved onto the next controversy which is the handling of James Click. He is just so furious that he was completely wrong along with every other national media type, about the Astros rebuild. They liked to poke fun when it was happening.

    I can still remember that Ryan Vogelsong story and you could feel the excitement exuding from the words of the writers about how the Astros treated him in some perceived weird way.

    The Brady Aiken deal and how the Astros ended up being 100% in the right on that.

    It eats these writers up that they were all wrong about all of it and the Astros were all right about all of it. The media is accustomed to being able to control people and guilt them into acting a certain way. The Astros have had none of that. They have done things exactly how they have wanted and in doing so have built one of the best baseball dynasties of all time.

    The media knows the cheating didn't help and that everyone else was doing it. They have long since moved on to another fabricated story. Probably several others since then. Winning another title has only amplified their search for something else to complain about as they get more and more frustrated with all the winning we are shoving in their faces, being reminded every day that they were 100% wrong about every last detail.
     
  13. Major

    Major Member

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    So just to be clear:

    Cheating didn't help the Astros.

    But they kept cheating anyway. So they are stupid cheaters?

    Also, "but everyone else was cheating", despite it apparently being of no help?

    So knowing a certain pitch is coming through a trashcan doesn't help, but knowing what pitch is coming because Darvish or McCullers is tipping pitches does help.

    People need to figure out their argument and stick with it.
     
  14. BlindHog

    BlindHog Member

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  15. AznH-TownFan

    AznH-TownFan Member

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    No other fanbase will think their teams cheated even when it’s reported that they did. We got caught/punished cuz of Fiers. No data and facts will change their minds. Embraced it!!!
     
  16. vince

    vince Member

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    You hit the nail on the head. They really didn’t hit any better, but they did get a few more walks, though nothing to brag about. It was a stupid scheme, and they got egg all over their face for adhering to a system that other teams figured out. And yes, they were stupid for sticking with a stupid system that wasn’t producing meaningful results.

    It seems other teams figured out the system, but likely stayed quiet about it because they too were doing their own thing. I mean, MLB coaches, scouts, player would likely hear a consistent loud bang before every specific pitch.

    Astros got pinched and reprimanded because one of their own snitched on them. And how can you refute first hand knowledge? But Fiers was furious at the Astros, because he thought the Astros hung him out to dry for keeping him off the playoff roster. Fiers, mr. no hitter, went from potentially being an ace, to not being wanted by the Astros,

    The Fiers and Gomez trade were the worst for Luhnow. Gomez the no-go showboat and Fiers the snitch, was bad!!!

    And tipping pitches is where McCullers was oblivious to what cue the Phillies picked up on. For sure the Astros were going to go back and try and spot it themselves, so as to correct it. But, I’m sure McCullers would not be tipping his pitches next time around. He got blond sided… to the tune of more than a handful homer’s.
     
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  17. msn

    msn Member

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    They stopped, early in 2018, because it wasn't helping.
     
  18. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn Member

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    It pretty clearly helped for a couple of the guys (looking at you Marwin, probably Beltran as well) while being irrelevant for the rest. Altuve was famously messed up by it and immediately asked for it to stop.
    My guess is hitting is so fast that you have such little time that you need to do it I’m the instinctive part of your brain- not the part that requires conscious thought.
     
    vince likes this.
  19. marks0223

    marks0223 2017 and 2022 World Series Champions
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    A big reason why it didn't help when looking at the complete 4 months it was used in 2017 was because they got it wrong...a lot. There are times they got in gloriously right but not enough to offset the overall bad impact. When they got it wrong that really blew up an at bat. Look at the Astros home and road splits in 2017. How much better they were on the road vs. home during those 4 months is almost unprecedented for a team as good as the Astros. Us fans were wondering if it was the new batters eye that year. No it was something else they were doing to themselves because of that sellout Carlos Beltran bringing that crap here. I trolled people before on Twitter showing their road stats but said it was home stats and they would jump on that saying seeeee Astros were much better at home due to trashcans, CHEATERS!1! Then I show them the real splits where the Astros were worse at home in 2017.
     
    #19 marks0223, Nov 13, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2022
    Wulaw Horn, vince and Rock Block like this.
  20. Rock Block

    Rock Block Sorta here sometimes
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    and as for the playoffs if it was all trash can sounds just challenge anyone to find video footage of hearing bangs at home during the playoffs, they can’t do it because it couldn’t be used so…..buzzers!!! Lol
     
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