Hello, another Raptor fan here. Been scanning this board lately for news on Hakeem. The people here are doing a great job. To answer some of your questions... On sign-&-trade... If Houston isn't willing to accommodate a S-&-T with Toronto, Dream will be forced to take whatever is on the table. No Keon. His upside is too huge to give up for an oldie. (We just gave up an old player to get him). Expect future draft picks or a project-player like Mamadou N'Diaye, a 2nd-year centre. Otherwise, it's your offer against ours. On Keon ... It's my understanding a contract extension will be offered to him this summer. His minutes will be up this year playing at centre, with or without Hakeem. He's supposedly a happy camper here in Toronto. He hasn't complained at all of the cold winters or of playing in a foreign country. (C'mon, we speak American too! ) So I expect him to sign. If not, we'll go down fighting to re-sign him next year. On Toronto payroll/luxury tax situation... A very dicey subject and not my expertise. Here's a link to a fan article that sums up our situation pretty good, I guess: http://boards.go.com/cgi/espn/request.dll?MESSAGE&room=nba_tor&id=104322 Again, I won't touch the subject. On Mo Taylor ... He was very close to signing with TO last summer. But his agent David Falk gave him the stupid idea he was worth maximum salary. Of course, that plan backfired when he signed with Houston for one year at the mid-level exception. This year he'll likely get the same deal Toronto offered him a year ago. Falk him! On Canadian stereotypes... Don't worry about that article. Being a Toronto sports fan, ignorance conveyed in one tiny sentence in the Chronicle is second nature to me. Believe me, Toronto fans have read a lot, lot worse. Ever read the Orlando Sentinel? (Read if you dare... http://basketball.fanhome.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=753711 ) Good luck, Clutch City! ------------------
Mo Taylor met with our GM WITHOUT his agent's permission and verbally agreed to a 3yr 18 million dollar deal. You gotta figure if he'd agree to a deal without his agent present, he must wanna come to Toronto to play with Vince, which is what he said. Well, as soon as Falk found out, he nixed the deal and Taylor signed with Houston for the exception. Taylor might be a nice guy but he's obviously a b**** if he can't say no to his agent. Now he'll probably get LESS money in a new deal with Houston. Keon will play there IF we can't get another legit C. Keon is a tad too weak to play the C spot. He tried to wear knee-high socks at one point but his legs were too skinny(true story). He doesn't have the strength to bang down low and that's why Hakeem is needed. Hakeem might come to Toronto even if Houston ups it's offer to 2 years? Why? Hakeem knows in his heart they only gave him a 2nd year to avoid a PR disaster. Toronto does have 100% leverage. Either sign him outright or give you scraps. If he wants to re-sign with Houston, there's nothing we can do about it. If he wants to sign with Toronto, Houston would basically have to beg for a sign and trade. Touchable Raptors: Tracy Murray, Eric Montross, Yogi Stewart, Brian Skinner, Dell Curry, Mamadou N'Diaye Keon isn't untouchable but I'm pretty sure it would have to be in a deal for a superstar or a sub-superstar like a Glenn Robinson type player. btw- I'm 5'9 and can dunk on a 9'rim. I'm thinking of buying those vertical enhancing shoes and training to get those next 12 inches. [This message has been edited by Flutie (edited July 22, 2001).]
Cool! I've always wanted to touch Eric Montross. Oh no, I've said too much.... ------------------ All hail Fadeaway's Cyberfish -- your 2000-2001 BobFinn* Fantasy Basketball League Champions!
Toronto doesn't have leverage if Houston doesn't care ------------------ Anyone need a C/C++/Win32/HTML/PHP/SQL/Java/Perl/x86 coder?
Flutie, welcome to the board and thank you for your comments from the other side, that add some objectivity to the matter. My question is this: I know nothing about your owner. Is he a Mark Cuban type? I am curious about how he will feel about paying the luxury tax next year to keep Keon Clark. Actually, Keon may want to get his extension locked up this fall. Is your owner ready to make a Catoesqe gamble on a few good months from Keon (on top of the $7 million bump he will want to give Vince Carter)? What I am saying that for $1 he pays Keon, he will really have to pay $2. Keon's $6 million per year contract will actually cost $12 million per year. Actually, in Canadian dollars it will only be about $1.5, so it may be okay. ------------------ [This message has been edited by JoeBarelyCares (edited July 22, 2001).] [This message has been edited by JoeBarelyCares (edited July 22, 2001).]
Huh? Who said we'd be paying luxury tax? Sure, we signed Davis, JYD and Alvin Williams to new deals and will probably re-up Vince this offseason but so what? We cleared 5 million in salary by trading Oakley to the Bulls and we will ditch the contracts of Chris Childs(5.5 million), Dell Curry(2 million) and Brian Skinnner(1.5 million) after this season. We will also buy out Yogi Stewart who makes roughly 4 million a year at a good price, relieving us of even more cap. We're cutting a ton of salary. I figure with AD, JYD, Alvin, Vince, Dream and Keon all signed up, we'll be a smidge over 50 million in committed salary. Our GM is arguably the best in the league. The owners in Toronto are not Cuban type but are a rich corporation(Maple Leaf Sports). They will NOT pay the luxury tax. Let's put it this way: The team would not be after Hakeem if it would somehow put them in the luxury tax after re-upping Carter and Clark. What do you mean if Houston doesn't care? Houston doesn't have a say in what Hakeem wants. If he wants to return to Houston, that's fine. If he wants to go to Toronto and will accept a contract starting at the exception, Houston is screwed and will get nothing. Considering Toronto seems willing to pay a little bit more than Houston, Houston has no leverage at all. They're basically saying, "please Dream, take less money." That's no leverage at all. btw- This deal that Pete Vescey brought up(Toronto 2yrs 20million) is impossible for a variety of reasons. Where the hell does this moron get his numbers? He probably copied it off some idiot's post on the ESPN Raptor board. ------------------
So if the Raptors don't get Hakeem, everything's fine, but if the Rockets don't get Hakeem, we're screwed? Huh? If the Rockets wanted Hakeem that badly, they could easily outbid the Raptors for him, please stop making it sound like the Rockets are desperate and begging for the Raptors to offer them something for Hakeem. If we get Hakeem, that's fine. If we don't get Hakeem, that's fine. If we get something in return of value, that's fine. And if we get nothing in return, that's fine as well. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I just want it to be over with. ------------------ So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking, Racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.
Well, I'd say you are a bit screwed if you don't keep Hakeem. Who's gonna play center? Kelvin Cato or Jason Collier? That's a scary though. Toronto has centers like Keon, Montross and Antonio Davis who can step in and play that position effectively. Let's not even get into the public relations disaster in a city that already has attendance problems. Yeah, they could easily outbid the Raptors... but then they won't be able to re-sign all their FAs and keep the young core together. It's your choice. ------------------
Well actually now that I think about it, both times we played the Raptors this season, we didn't have Hakeem. We won both games by a combined 34 points, maybe you guys need him more than us? ------------------ So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking, Racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.
I think its hilarious that a guy who says we've got nothing at center if Hakeem leaves would claim that Eric Montross could be an effective option for them in the middle. If the Rockets don't keep Hakeem, Flutie, rest assured they are planning to get a free agent to help out at center. There will be plenty of cap space left after Mo, Shandon, and Moochie are taken care of. ------------------ I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip that I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.
We are not going to overpay an aging center and possibly sacrifice cap space to resign the young nucleus of mo mo, moo moo, and possibly Shandon. We obviously feel these 3 are more important than Hakeem. If Dream was more important, we would pay him some more, but as it stands, he is not. ------------------ its not the hours you put in your work that counts, it's the work you put in the hours - alaskansnowman
lol, you just said a few posts ago Keon is too skinny to play center and AD doesn't want to play center. Montross is a waste. I don't think Keon is much better than Cato, if that. And as far as trading away Keon for a star like Glenn Robinson, lol whatever dude. You'd be lucky to get Hakeem for him. And stating that the Raptors have 100% leverage is a joke. ------------------ .,.·^*'´'|'\..........,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,...,/|'`*^·-, '|.......'|::\......,·'.....,.·:*:·,......'`i:'|.......| '|.......'|:::|.....;.......':,:::,:·.......';:|.......| '|.......|::;i - ·;i'`:,......¯¯.......,·´|::|.......| '|.......'´.......'|'i:::`*:~·.–·~^*'´: :'|::|.......'`*·-, '|........,.-:^:':'\:'`:;:: :: : : : :: ::;·'i::/`':^·.,......`'i '|..,.:'´:::::::::::'\| '`*^~·:–:·~^*'´..'|/:::::::::'`:^:., | '´:;:::::::::;:-·^*'´.....................`'*^·:;-.....:;·' ....`·;:·'´........................................'`^·:;·´
You just said you'd have 50 mill tied up in 6 players, and the luxury tax wouldn't be a problem? What, is the rest of your roster going to be signed for the minimum? By the way, even if Hakeem leaves, the Rockets will have at least 7 mill to play with after signing Mo and Moochie. Plenty of money for center hunting. If the Raptors are only offering a 2 year deal at the MCE (4.5 mill), the difference in value between that and our alleged offer of 2 years at 4.1 is less than 750K. Will Hakeem leave Houston over that? Probably not. The whole reason we're not willing to give him multiple years is because we're going to have 10 million in cap space next year if he leaves, or signs a 1 year deal. A sign and trade will almost certainly necessitate giving away something of value in return. Why? Indiana and New York will be scrounging to find a way to make an acceptable sign and trade package for Hakeem, to get him the most money. And no, Brian Skinner, Eric Montross, and Yogi Stewart are not considered any kind of value, though the Rockets may take one of them on to get Clark. Hakeem original demand was for 10 mill a season, and he will likely do what he can to get that. Why did Keon average under 10 MPG in the playoffs? You're saying you would give up on Hakeem for a guy that averaged under 10 MPG in your recent playoff run and would be your 4th big man, and will demand a large contract when the season is up? Right. ------------------ "I always thought Hakeem was the better offensive player and DRob the better defender." Spurever Shaq would probably agree.
I'm trying to figure out how Toronto has 100% leverage when Houston, Indiana, Utah and New York are all chasing Dream! Toronto's best chance of getting Dream would be a sign-and-trade! Eric Montross an effective center!? LOL! ------------------ "Instruments are like women: After a while, you want to make love to another." - Nicolas Godin of the musical duo Air
Your number is close, but here are some things to consider. Your scenario of a Stewart buyout and renouncing Dell Curry, Skinner, & Childs leaves you are $4.0M under the LTax with the following roster: 5 Olajuwon / Clark / N'diaye / Montross 4 AD / JYD / Bradley 3 Carter / Murray 2 Peterson 1 Williams Looks a might thin at the guard spots. Also, your figure does not appear to include a significant bump for Clark. While he may be happy in Toronto, money talks and your $50M figure is Clark @ $2.7M. Anything above that eats into $4.0M buffer you have from the LTax. And you still need some players. I believe you can use your exceptions, but they still count against the LTax. IMHO, it's a double edged sword. I think Dream will make Toronto a force next season as the overall centre play in the East is not as high a level as the West. But, year two has you committed for at least $6.0M to a soon to be 40 yo player with a recent injury history and not much wiggle room LTax wise should he go down for an extended period in year 2. ------------------ Raef to Rocks in '01-'02! [This message has been edited by GATER (edited July 22, 2001).]
Ok, I'll say it again REAL slow this time! Montross isn't an effective C but he can still give us 10-15 minutes a night while platooning with Brian Skinner(very underrated and has great numbers against east teams) and Keon Clark. Skinner is underated because he sucks and he has good numbers against the east because the east sucks Who are the Rockets gonna get as their C? If they re-sign, the Rockets can get nobody with no cap space. Marc Jackson? IMPOSSIBLE. He's restricted and you'd have to sign an offer sheet with your exception. Golden State would match this and retain him. This why it is almost a lock for him to go to Seattle because they can blow all their 6 million in space for him. Forget Marc Jackson. On the fanhome.com Raptor board, we worked out whether or not the Raptors could get Marc Jackson and it's impossible for any team other than Seattle or Detroit basically. GS can't offer more than 4.5 mill to keep Marc. Rockets should have plenty of money to go past that if they only re-sign Mo and Mooch. Impossible to sign Marc? Maybe for the Raptors. Keon is way beyond Kelvin Cato... Oh man... Also, if he's not much better, why do you want him in a S&T? And I meant getting traded in a PACKAGE for a star player. A PACKAGE. why want him in a sign and trade? he's a decent backup center. Tell me why he's so much of a better center than Cato if hes really a four anyway. PACKAGE PACKAGE, you don't have anyone to PACKAGE with your young backup center to get a star. Yes, the rest of our roster basically is signed to the minimum! I'm saying a whole team salary of 50 million. The luxury tax threshold goes up every year... What's the problem? I don't really care about Raptors salary cap but it's funny how much the Raps have to overpay roleplayers to make them stick around so that maybe, just maybe they can keep Carter. If Hakeem wanted to stay in Houston for less pay, he would've re-signed by now. It's probably not about money though, Dream just wants to feel he's needed and he MAY find that somewhere other than Houston! That's what I've been saying! hmm, i guess you are saying that the Rockets dont feel they need him, but the Raps feel they need him sooo bad. Wanna know why Toronto has leverage? We're offering Dream a straight up contract that he can sign without a S&T. Houston doesn't wanna pay as much as we do because they can't get all three of their other FAs. Indy can't use their 4.5 million exception because it will put them into the luxury tax!!! That's why they didn't sign Mark Jackson. NY can only work a sign and trade or give him the 1 million exception. Toronto is the only team that can offer him the money flat out for him to take. oh, please. The only one with leverage is HAKEEM FREAKING OLAJUWON. Toronto ONLY has leverage if Hakeem wants to play there, and that doesnt mean the Rockets will take on contracts just to get Olajuwan more money in a sign and trade to the Raps. Hakeem is interested wherever he can get the most money, and the most money is through sign and trade, which the Rockets can provide. Keon played and did well in the NY series but did poorly in the Philly series. He's not a good rebounder and Mutumbo killed him in that category. not a good rebounder, can't play against real centers... hmmm btw- Don't diss the Raps because they might take Hakeem, ok? If i diss the raps, its because they suck, not because they "take" hakeem. [This message has been edited by CriscoKidd (edited July 22, 2001).] [This message has been edited by CriscoKidd (edited July 22, 2001).]
I'll say it again, we beat the Raptors in 2 games by a combined 34 points <u>WITHOUT</u> Hakeem Olajuwon. Our team can manage itself without him. Also if you do get him, be prepared to be without him for at least 20 games, if you're lucky... ------------------ So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking, Racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.
I don't think Toronto has anytype of leverage. Wasn't it Toronto the team that the Dream said he would rather retire than go play for? Why would he change his mind now? Never know he might, just my insight. ------------------
Brilliant. "The east sucks". That says it all when it comes to the quality of your opinion, now doesn't it? All signs point to the Rockets trying to re-sign ALL their young FAs and not Marc Jackson. They still can't offer as much as Seattle. Fahgetaboutit. You're just hating the Raptors. If you think Alvin Williams and Antonio Davis are roleplayers, you know nothing about the game of basketball and your opinion means nothing. I'm telling you about our cap situation because a Rocket fan enquired about it. READ THE THREAD. Oh yeah, and Mutumbo is just like every other center right? The guy's the best rebounder of the past decade for God's sake. Keon is young, has never been to the playoffs and was overmatched against him. Everyone other than Shaq is overmatched against Mutumbo on the boards, especially someone who needs to work on their rebounding skills. Jeez, you're just hating the Raptors, aren't you? Pete Rose, who cares how you did against the Raptors? We beat Phily 3 times this year, does that mean we're better? Seattle swept L.A, does that mean they're better? That's a pathetic arguement. Those stats are irrelevent at best. Wow, Houston beat the Raptors without Hakeem, they must be guaranteed a championship now! ------------------
Flutie, good posts so far, but c'mon, Williams and Davis ARE role players. Neither of those guys are going to be "the man" to carry the Raptors to the next level. They could be the guys that help get them over the hump with the "leadership"(HAHA) of Vince Carter, but they are hardly the driving force on that team. ------------------ Anger is a weed. Hate is a tree.
