That would be great. I would welcome hearing your thoughts on it. I also believe that God is perfect in justice and mercy. That is part of my problem with what has become the traditional view of hell. Hitler was supposedly a Christian. Gandhi wasn't. It is neither perfect justice, or mercy that Hitler should spend eternity in heaven, while Gandhi should spend eternity in hell. As I said earlier the more important message from what Jesus was preaching about was trying to live in a Christ like manner. As you mentioned the hell he talked about was reserved for those that rejected his message of loving etc. So I think the more important matter would be to focus on trying to live a life that is in Christ's example.
I still believe all Christians ultimately believe in a torturous eternity for all non believers. Sorry to be stubborn about that, but that's how I will remain. It can be painted in different lights or the question avoided altogether - at the end of the day the Bible is pretty straightforward and clear. The smart ones, like rhester and madmax, realise its best to tone the hell-talk down because in their logical minds they themselves can't comprehend any kind of logic that explains a loving god condemning a vast majority of the people he supposedly created and loves, to eternal agony. [/QUOTE] I made a similar comment in your "Atheist" thread that I think if you feel that you as an atheist are getting grief have you considered it might be that you claiming to know what others believe, even though you think it hogwash?[/QUOTE] I personally am not getting all that much grief, and I certainly dont go about my normal life trying to talk or argue religious people out of their faith (although should the conversation arise, I will certainly be open about where I stand)...I didnt start the discussion on hell in this thread, but once someone said they believed only 'batsh* crazy Christians believed in hell' - then I had to call them on that. In the other thread I was more opening the discussion up because of the condemnation I have seen and read about towards athiests. And because I wanted to know why Clutchfans thought this might be the case.
No, the hebrews called the valley something along the lines of Gai Ben-Himmon (that's not doubt on the word, rather my memory of it). This name existed for a long time (reference the old testament - Jeremiah?). The christianized/greek bastardization is gehenna.
I'm with you, I know little of Hitler and Gandhi but personally my understanding is that God doesn't make mistakes, I trust His judgment, not my own I have no problem knowing the forgiveness God has given me in Christ, I was a sinner I am pretty simple as a Pastor I don't focus on sin I focus on the Savior
Pardon me but this strikes me as being very presumptious about their beliefs. You are saying that you, as someone who thinks this is hogwash, are saying you know what MadMax and Rhester, two self-proclaimed Jesus Freaks, truly believes and are hiding or that they fail to comprehend their own religion. You had a particular experience with Christianity while they have their own. I'm not a Christian but from what I understand of it it is a religion with many different interpretations. Their experience and understanding may be very different than what you had yet you are verging on calling them heretics, since they don't embrace a doctrine of Hell, to a religion that you no longer subscribe to. Whether batsh^t crazy Christians or friendly Christians believe in Hell for non-believers as a non-Christian I'm not about to tell them whether they are correctly or not correctly interpretting Christianity. I have a intellectual understanding of Christianity but don't share the faith. Its not for me to tell a Christian whether they understand the faith correctly.
I believe they are very good Christians, and in addition two of my favorite posters here. However, I also believe that they are - understandably so - sugarcoating the fact that Christians believe Non Christians are going to suffer eternally.
Hmmm... I'm reading the wiki page and from the information there it seems like: Gai Ben-Hinnom = The valley of son of Hinnom. So then, what did Hinnom mean? Gehinnom = Valey of Hinnom The page mentions: (Btw I'm just reading stuff as I go here, so plz point me to a good source if what I'm saying is not true) So it seems to me like: The valley had fire, garbage, dead animals, etc and supposedly a gate to a lake of fire. The Hebrews called it Gai Benhinnom. So they distinguished between Gehinnom and Gai Ben Hinnom. In the Hebrew Bible, when they say Gai Ben Hennom it is reffering to the valey and not to hell (also according to wiki). It means valley of the son of hell. However, it became Gehenna in Greek and, correct me if I'm wrong, does sometimes refer to hell rather than the valley? (If so, why did this change?) Were both Gai Ben Hinnom and Gehinnom assimilated into the Greek form as Gehenna? Also, this explanation leaves the door open that the word Hinnom (in some form) existed even before Jeremiah, right? Certainly we can't assume that it came into existance when it was mentioned in Jeremiah. I suppose what I'm looking for is what did Hinnom mean and did the word exist before the valley was named with it?
But not all Christians believe that. I know because I'm a Christian who doesn't believe that, my mother was a Pastor of a mainstream Christian church who didn't believe that, I saw a seminar about different views of hell, and there were Christian scholars there who also didn't believe that.
At the risk of sounding like a real jerk - what DO you think will happen to non believers when they pass away?
Hi Mathloom: I am not a scholar in this regard but this link is roughly what I understand to be the origination of the word... I first read about this interesting factoid in a book so long ago I cannot even remember it's name. If you're interested, let me know and I'll take a look through my bookshelf and see if I can find/remember it. Note the italicized portion - I think that is a highly questionably assertion, but not surprising given the link source.
I understand about Gandhi, but what makes you think Hitler was a Christian in anything other than name?
I don't know if anyone is a Christian or not. But he claimed to be and even said something at one point about doing God's work. I can only go on what they claim. Hitler's actions were definitely not what I would consider Christian. But I'm not in any position to judge who is and who isn't. That isn't up to me, so if someone says they are, I don't really doubt it. Is it possible that Hitler believed Jesus was the son of God who died for his sins, along with the other crazy stuff he believed? Sure. Members of the Klan do.
I don't know. I don't usually concern myself with that. As I said I believe the bible and being a Christian is more about living a life that follows Christ's teachings and examples. I concern myself with living more than with death. I have a thought, that everyone receives consciousness of how their actions affected others as well as how deciding differently could have affected others. Those that lived without love will suffer from their consciences. It will be hell for them knowing that and feeling the pain they've caused. Certainly it is just since it is reaping what they've sewn. Like I said, it's just a thought. I don't really know, and I don't believe it's up to me to decide.
It is a fine position to say you don't know who is saved and who isn't. But, then I don't know if you can complain that Hitler not going to hell is imperfect justice or mercy. Maybe there is a literal hell and Hitler is going there.
I was just talking by the traditional Christian view. I don't believe that Hitler is going to heaven and Gandhi to jail. I don't actually believe in a literal hell, and so Hitler wouldn't be going there, which would be mercy and love beyond what I could fathom. I was playing along with the theory that anyone who is a Christian is going to heaven and anyone who isn't is going to hell for eternity. To me that goes against the ideas of what I read in the bible. The idea that God is love, and that God is just goes against that to me. I just used Gandhi and Hitler as an example.
The orthodox Christian teaching is clear. 1. All have sinned...every human has violated the Laws of God thereby becoming party to the satanic rebellion. Jesus said he saw the Devil fall from heaven like lightening. 2. The pre-creation "war in heaven" resulted in a horrible judgment; Hell was created for the Devil and his angels. 3. God determined to reclaim his creation. He came to earth in a form of a man, lived a perfect life, became a perfect sacrifice, died for the sins of the world, and offers forgiveness and restoration to all who will receive his finished work by grace through faith. 4. Jesus said that everyone must be "born again" of the Spirit. This is a mystery, but it is the mystery of godliness, of restoration, of salvation. Except a man be born again he can not see the kingdom of heaven. 5. Whether or not most Americans or any one else believes in hell is irrelevant. The Bible clearly teaches not only that it exists but that it is the certain destination of those who die in their sins without the miracle of salvation. 6. What must one do to be born again, to avoid the terrible judgment created for the rebels of heaven? How can one be cleansed of sin, recreated, restored, and have a future in the eternal kingdom? 7. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved! (perfect tense in the Greek, something that occurs in a point of time the results of which are for all eternity.) Anything else is something more or less that historic, classic Christianity. There are many versions, but only one original. In Christ alone, by Grace alone, through Faith alone.
Thanks solid, FINALLY someone tells it the way it is. Any other 'christian' interpretation is just making up their own suitable beliefs to make everything nice and kosher.
