Well - I think it's all hogwash being that I am now atheist - but some of my best friends, and most of my family, are very 'nice, normal' people who would give their shirt off their back for others ... but ultimately they believe in physical eternal damnation/hell/whatever you want to call it. They might speak of it in hushed tones (or not at all) so as not to upset or offend people, but ultimately that's what they believe.
I understand I used to be an atheist no problem, and I don't think in terms of judging others I have enough crap wrong in my life anyways I believe I needed forgiveness and I found it, that's all
I know plenty of people who would say exactly the same things as you on a public forum, but they would admit privately that if people dont repent and accept JC then you are going to burn. Infact, I used to be one. My enlightenment came from realising I DID NOT need to be forgiven. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
I speak often, very frequently on some pretty interesting public forums and I tak about justice, mercy, repentance and forgiveness and Jesus, I don't think I have ever told someone they were going to burn and to be very honest I don't even think that way I think it is great you don't need to be forgiven. sincerely I mean that opposites attract?
rhester, This might be a derail or as good a thread as any, but I'm interested in what your interpretation of the Holy Spirit is.
Great discussion going on here, I just thought I'd add a little more from the Muslim perspective. First of all, I know there are some extremist Muslims out there (even in the west) who will readily condemn non-believers to hell. I would like to point out that the Quran states: "And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account." (3:199) "Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn." (3:113-115) And most significantly is the following: "Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." Qur'an 2:62 I am pretty sure a good deal of you already knew all that and already know that in Islam a Muslim man is allowed marry a non-Muslim woman as long as she is a person of the book (Muslim women are only allowed to marry other Muslims). I believe a union such as this can work but only if the wife is ready to accept one of the most significant roles of a Muslim parent: to raise his children as a Muslim. So i guess it is pretty black and white when it comes to Islam, except for when you consider who falls under the "people of the book" category. Besides Jews and Christians, some argue that Zoroastrians should be included. Feel free to continue this intelligent debate!
aussie, So ultimately you're problem with Christianity is that some people go to hell? or that it seems to say that some good people (non-Christian) will go to hell? I'm not quite sure I followed your line of thinking..
My interpretation would be God's spirit that works with man's spirit, in a Christian the Holy Spirit would be the influence for me to become loving, joyful, peaceful, full of good deeds, gentle, compassionate, patient, selfless, responsible, faithful and a whole lot of other characteristics consistent with Jesus own character. So that a Christian can represent Jesus accurately in life and conduct. I understand the Holy Spirit to be God's power on earth to affect men and women. Off the top of my head anyways.
Mathloom, Hell is not my only problem with christianity,but ultimately I dont believe in a god so its all null and void. nevertheless,a hearty discussion on hell is great entertainment value for a dreary Wednesday.
correct, it is the Greek word for the Hebrew valley, it was translated hell in the old english versions centuries later- I am not sure how the Latin versions were translated christianity is not an English language thing anyways, good translators focus on the early texts they use, typically Greek texts
Thanks, it's great to see all the references together like that. I understand that he was speaking in metaphor and that was part of my point. And your point about there being no Christians at the time also helps my point, being that because a Christian may not believe in a hell doesn't mean he isn't a Christian.
As you have said several times you are an atheist so why do you think you know what rhester truly believes. Whether you were a Christian before or not your experience isn't the same as Rhester's. I made a similar comment in your "Atheist" thread that I think if you feel that you as an atheist are getting grief have you considered it might be that you claiming to know what others believe, even though you think it hogwash?
good point as a preacher I can tell you that if you major on hell it would be like raising your kids telling them every single day you are going to whip the tar out of them if they do one thing wrong... duh of course if you eliminate justice and judgment then forgiveness and mercy mean nothing their is nothing wrong with the traditional christian view of hell or judgment imo it's not like my opinion has any bearing on the subject anyways i certainly believe God is perfect in justice and mercy I have some very interesting thoughts on this if you could email me, or remind me later
Wouldn't the earliest texts be in Aramaic rather than Greek? (While we're on this topic, would you possibly be able to point me to the oldest known scriptures which went into the Bible? Are they called something specific?)
