Radical Islam: Likely be around for quite some time

fun·da··men·tal·ism

n.

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

2. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
Adherence to the theology of this movement.


.
.
.
.
.
Every definition of Christian fundamentalism I can find emphasizes two things:

1. A strict adhearence to the text of the Bible as the absolute and direct word of God straight from Him to you without any context.

and

2. A desire to acheve a "higher asceticism" a seperation from the sin of the world and seperation from the false religion of the Christian modernist.

Given #2, I would suggest that it is an easy step from a world in which you seek a "higher moral asceticism" to one in which you begin to pass judgement on the rest of the world on the basis of said asciticism. In otherwords, fundamentaly Fundamentalists seek to seperate the "moral wheat from the chaff", and that the adherent of this philosophy, when they would stray from this philosophy, would stray in the direction of judgementalism, as opposed to the Protistant modernist who would stray towards a lax acceptance of that which they profess to consider wrong.

 

Further examining the concept, I find it intresting that the two modern strains of Fundamentalism that I can think of occur in Islam, with it's decentralized structure and relative sparseness of supporting documented culture, and American Protestantism in the 19th century in the US, another culture fairly free of religious ephemera.

 

People like Falwell and Robertson don't need terror camps. The American war machine works fine. They have lobbies and media organizations designed to spew their rhetoric in the name of Jesus Christ.

Fundamentalist Christian support for Isreal has influenced Middle East policy since its birth. And it's not because they love their Jewish brothers. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_isra.htm

It's their influence that contraceptives and AIDS relief in Africa have been publicity circus with no real help in sight.

Instead of overt religious policy, they tend to cloak their influence in moral policy or a harkening to older times, the good ol days. The only difference in my eyes between the two fundamentalist groups is have and have-not.

 

So you're going to equate political lobbying to armed terrorism? You're a strange guy.

 

If that political lobbying causes unnessessary death of innocent civilians in the form of collateral damage, then what distinction is there? Because we're spoon-fed a cause deemed morally acceptable? Their intent is the same though the damage caused are through different means.

The point is is that armed terrorism isn't their last resort, and they don't have the mainstream appeal for violence because their constituents aren't fearing for their lifestyles at the moment. The countries fundamentalist terrorists come from don't have political alternatives or a venue to lobby. When the Supreme Court layed down the guidelines of abortion in Roe v. Wade, you had religious extremists who took the law into their hands. What if abortion stopped being a public debate and became widely accepted?

Radical Islamic terrorists are going strike a stronger emotional chord with me, but I'm not going to diminish the effects of fundamentalist Christian groups just because I'm not directly in the receiving end of their bigoted beliefs and its influence on foreign policy.

 

You are grasping at straws here. I suppose if you tried hard enough you could link any group to death. Then again, if you tried hard enough, I suppose you could link REM to Kevin Bacon.

Hey genius...many of the countries the armed terrorist come from are Islamic theocracies. They don't need a lobby when their lifestyle is prescribed by law.

Wow...and they went to prison. Who would have thought? Incedentally, you are comparing a few isolated nutjobs to tens of thousands of people who have gone to terrorist training camps. No matter how you spin it, it isn't the same.

This is simply too ignorant for words. Did some Christian take your lunch money when you were a kid? Seems like you are just looking to have an ax to grind.

 

Hi Ref,

How you been? Anyway, I wanted to weigh in a bit.

I can understand your reaction to Invisible Fan, and I personally think his line is a bit extreme.

That said, there are a growing number of people who are afraid of "rapture politics." Here's an article from thelutheran.org that discusses how extreme beliefs on the rapture may actually be affecting political decisions and actions. Maybe it's all incredibly overblown, but it's scary.

I'm not sure that's exactly Invisible Fan's line, but if an extreme view such as "the rapture is coming soon -- world peace is out of our hands anyway" can affect, say, foreign policy, I think most of us agree that's a bad thing (at least until we all agree on the date of a coming rapture ).

I don't know how seriously to take the rapture politics worry, but Ashcroft, at least, has said some bizarre things, and I wouldn't put much nuttiness past that guy.

 

There will always be "radicals," and there will always be "extremists." But Islam hardly has a monopoly on the nutjob market.

 

Michael Stipe was in Arena Brains (1988) with Richard (I) Price
Richard (I) Price was in Night and the City (1992) with Eli Wallach
Eli Wallach was in Mystic River (2003) with Kevin Bacon

 

I knew that was going to happen.

 

I'm doing well B-Bob, thanks for asking. I trust you are well.

I understand your point, and there are going to be some relatively isolated groups of doomsday theorists out there. But it seems to me that Invisible Fan is equating large groups of Christians who lobby politically to groups of Islamic radicals who blow people up. That amounts to a quantum leap in logic.

 

Is our unflagging support of Israel because we think it's right, because fundamentalists need a Jewish state to be destroyed for Revelations to come true, because of guilt from the Holocaust or some combination of those factors? The fact that some prominent fundamentalists will out of one side of their mouth say stuff like Jews killed Jesus and the other side be unwavering in their support of the state of Israel is unseemly in the least. I'm still waiting with bated breath for the red cow breeding program to bear fruit. There is a non trivial breeding project of American cattlemen to create a perfect red heifer so that it may be sacrificed in Jerusalem at the original temple to make one of the *predictions* in Revelations IIRC (but they'd have to destroy the muslim building on top of the old site), but they've had some of these for years and apocalypse and the army from the east hasn't risen yet.

However, to me there seems to be no difference between those who would purposely try to bring about Revelations' apocalypse and those who think committing suicide is a great way to meet Yahweh early.

 

Just look to Robertson and Falwell on their policies of warfare in the Middle East, contraceptives, and abortion. They don't distance themselves from the bloody aspects of it, and I don't think they want to stop it.

Egypt, Saudia Arabia, and Turkey all have their share of terrorism that's either under reported here or summarized for your benefit as "supporting countries on the War of Terror". I guess you think they're all the same in beliefs.

Amazingly those same Middle Eastern governments will torture and execute the terrorists they catch.... Apparently their laws prescribed by lifestyle don't match the terrorists. Who would have thought?

Oh yes, the number count. If you want to compare the percentage of terrorists to total population in both religions, they are both extremely small... or isolated.

There are fundamentalist Christian hate groups in the tens of thousands. Check out the Christian Identity movement. Jesus was a pacifist, but there are members in that movement who are willing to depict him as a soldier vanquishing the enemies of God leading up to the apocolyptic battle between him and Satan. It's easy to justify violence in both religions, eh?

I don't have a problem with all Christians. Your Strawman might...

Do all Christians believe that Israel must be given to the Jews at all costs because it was fortold in the Bible? Or on the day of judgement, Jews will be forced to choose Christianity or be forsaken to hell?

Do all Christians find homosexuality, other religions, contraceptives, and abortion so morally repugnant to the point that they'll encourage violence or harmful neglect upon it?

You can call my opinion extreme. Other lobbies have killed people directly and indirectly. What's heinous is that these fundamentalist Christian groups are using our clout as a world power to influence decisions that adversly affect the lives and living conditions outside our borders. People trying to take prophecy into their own hands or when they follow select verses word for word while disregarding others are affecting the lives of millions over a sustained period of time. We have more wealth and freedoms than Muslim countries do. I don't expect a direct parallel in actions.

I see that you think I'm labeling large groups of Christians because different denominations have coinciding interests, or you're possibly offended at the thought of a true Christian (as true in the sense of a Muslim suicide bombing through the words of Mohammed) would think like a terrorist. I didn't intend to portray any Christian disagreeing with abortion or homosexuality as a fundamentalist, and I should have written that they hold all of those issues (Israel, promiscuity, other religions, etc...) central to their core beliefs.

 

In the end it seems radical streams of support wane once they are in power. The only way to stamp out radical Islam may be to allow the people who want it to actually experience it ala Iran. In the meantime the only thing we (as in the US) need to do is concentrate on alternative fuels (other than oil) and we can ignore the whole ignorant bunch.

 

Agreed. Good to hear from you Hayes.

 

Hey Ref. Good to hear from you as well. I'm pretty much relegated to weekend warrior status on the bbs (when I can fit a couple of minutes in).

 

I hear ya. I'm here on weekends and a few posts each work day. This whole working for a living thing has been hell on my post count.

 

Here's a good column by Thomas Friedman of the New York Times that's very pertinent to this thread...


February 29, 2004

OP-ED COLUMNIST

30 Little Turtles
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

BANGALORE, India

Indians are so hospitable. I got an ovation the other day from a roomful of Indian 20-year-olds just for reading perfectly the following paragraph: "A bottle of bottled water held 30 little turtles. It didn't matter that each turtle had to rattle a metal ladle in order to get a little bit of noodles, a total turtle delicacy. The problem was that there were many turtle battles for less than oodles of noodles."

I was sitting in on an "accent neutralization" class at the Indian call center 24/7 Customer. The instructor was teaching the would-be Indian call center operators to suppress their native Indian accents and speak with a Canadian one — she teaches British and U.S. accents as well, but these youths will be serving the Canadian market. Since I'm originally from Minnesota, near Canada, and still speak like someone out of the movie "Fargo," I gave these young Indians an authentic rendition of "30 Little Turtles," which is designed to teach them the proper Canadian pronunciations. Hence the rousing applause.

Watching these incredibly enthusiastic young Indians preparing for their call center jobs — earnestly trying to soften their t's and roll their r's — is an uplifting experience, especially when you hear from their friends already working these jobs how they have transformed their lives. Most of them still live at home and turn over part of their salaries to their parents, so the whole family benefits. Many have credit cards and have become real consumers, including of U.S. goods, for the first time. All of them seem to have gained self-confidence and self-worth.

A lot of these Indian young men and women have college degrees, but would never get a local job that starts at $200 to $300 a month were it not for the call centers. Some do "outbound" calls, selling things from credit cards to phone services to Americans and Europeans. Others deal with "inbound" calls — everything from tracing lost luggage for U.S. airline passengers to solving computer problems for U.S. customers. The calls are transferred here by satellite or fiber optic cable.

I was most taken by a young Indian engineer doing tech support for a U.S. software giant, who spoke with pride about how cool it is to tell his friends that he just spent the day helping Americans navigate their software. A majority of these call center workers are young women, who not only have been liberated by earning a decent local wage (and therefore have more choice in whom they marry), but are using the job to get M.B.A.'s and other degrees on the side.

I gathered a group together, and here's what they sound like: M. Dinesh, who does tech support, says his day is made when some American calls in with a problem and is actually happy to hear an Indian voice: "They say you people are really good at what you do. I am glad I reached an Indian." Kiran Menon, when asked who his role model was, shot back: "Bill Gates — [I dream of] starting my own company and making it that big." I asked C. M. Meghna what she got most out of the work: "Self-confidence," she said, "a lot of self-confidence, when people come to you with a problem and you can solve it — and having a lot of independence." Because the call center teams work through India's night — which corresponds to America's day — "your biological clock goes haywire," she added. "Besides that, it's great."

There is nothing more positive than the self-confidence, dignity and optimism that comes from a society knowing it is producing wealth by tapping its own brains — men's and women's — as opposed to one just tapping its own oil, let alone one that is so lost it can find dignity only through suicide and "martyrdom."

Indeed, listening to these Indian young people, I had a déjà vu. Five months ago, I was in Ramallah, on the West Bank, talking to three young Palestinian men, also in their 20's, one of whom was studying engineering. Their hero was Yasir Arafat. They talked about having no hope, no jobs and no dignity, and they each nodded when one of them said they were all "suicide bombers in waiting."

What am I saying here? That it's more important for young Indians to have jobs than Americans? Never. But I am saying that there is more to outsourcing than just economics. There's also geopolitics. It is inevitable in a networked world that our economy is going to shed certain low-wage, low-prestige jobs. To the extent that they go to places like India or Pakistan — where they are viewed as high-wage, high-prestige jobs — we make not only a more prosperous world, but a safer world for our own 20-year-olds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/opinion/29FRIE.html?hp



I spent two months in Bangalore over 30 years ago. It's nice to read stories like this. Things are so often more complicated than they appear on the surface. I hope someday that some of these jobs can go to Pakistan, where they speak English just as well.