A great post but I think it only hits upon one part of the issue of racism. The problem with human culture is that history has a very strong pull on all of us and its hard to get past that history. Pre-judgements can't be erased overnight and sometimes never. This actually ties into a lot of threads we've had on the D & D like the Japanese textbook thread and the arguments over what rights China has over Tibet or Taiwan. So even if something happened a thousand years ago those issues will continue to resonate today. For things like affirmative action I think that even though we like to believe that wealth and success can be built up overnight in America I don't think that really is the case. Family background and upbringing have a lot to do with it. So while there are many Horatio Alger stories in general its far easier to be successful if you come from a successful family or at leas a middle-class family. The problem that I see with Black America is that legally for so long they were deliberately kept out of the doorways of opportunity to the point that for many they don't have the same family background to build off of. They don't have legacies at universities, family connections at businesses or even a family history or valuing education since they weren't given that opportunity. That's very different than other immigrants like Asians most of whom came here after the Civil Rights movements and were educated and driven to come to what they saw as a new land of opportunity. For most of US history this land has been anything but a land of opportunity to Blacks. So yes minorities need to work hard and all that but at the sametime I don't think you can totally rule out centuries of legal and cultural oppression.
If black people would just disappear then all of the nice white people wouldn't have to worry about offending them or "being racist" or lynchings. Don't "you people" see the harm you are causing? It is clearly all your fault.
Sishir Chang...great post....i happen to be indian...and culturally we have the same inspiration towards education...people don't understand the effect of social progression from influential cultural development on a historical basis.
It is not a matter of ignoring past wrongs but a matter of focusing more on the future and spend community efforts and resouces on correcting the current situation.
stranger still . .. . the greatest beneficiaries are. . . WHITE WOMEN so . . . I would not say Whites are hurt by it as a whole White Men Rocket River
this probably goes more into political ideology now, but the problem is the decades of entitlement programs that have been given to the lower class in america which seem to have sucked away a strong work ethic. i'm not arguing that they don't provide benefits, but i am stating that people who have direct ties to their immigrant roots seem to never be asking for something. perhaps it has more to do with immigrants being willing to do any job to make money versus americans who have been here for generations feeling that they are too good for a job. i don't know but there is some sort of difference that causes this. another anecdotal point here...whenever i see some bum begging for money it is always a white guy or a black guy but never an asian or mexican (since i feel the need to preface everything, i say mexican because that is like the vast majority of hispanics here in texas). i just don't understand how past cultural and legal oppression translates into failure to succeed today. yes racism still exists, but that doesn't mean that the opportunities are not there to succeed and be in control.
Trader Jorge you have continued to make very weak points and added very little to this discussion other than the occasional comment to try to get under someone's skin. Is there any reason why we should even take anything you say seriously? You come off as a joke and someone who just likes to keep up some sort of online persona for fun. Which is fine by me if that's all you want to do, but it would be nice to know if this is your only goal.
Great post. The destruction of the background for African Americans goes even deeper. At times of slavery, the Africans who spoke the same dialect were purposefully seperated, and in order to communicate with other Africans, they mixed parts of West African language structure, with whatever they could pick up in English. Of course it was not legal for Africans to read or write, or learn those things once they were in the U.S. As a result their own language was purposefully destroyed, and what developed after that was held against them. Then for years they were forced into segregated schools, and a lack of understanding of the language base was thought to be slang, or African American's being too lazy, or stupid to learn academic English. Because of that Blacks were overidentified as being low performers in education, placed disproportionately in remedial, and lower level classes. That caused many to see education as unfair, not worthy of being a top priority, etc. Also the education they did reveive was far less than what others with the same abilities at the same schools were reveiving. That still happens widely today, so anyone who believes that we no longer need to address these issues is sorely mistaken.
you also have the element of anti-intelluctualism within american black culture that needs to be dealt with too. this is development of what you are talking about as well. if you want to address the issues then you have to address all aspects of the issue even the ones that may not be as politically correct.
Charles Barkley is right now on NPR Talk of the Nation talking about racism. He's got so pretty good thing to say pertaining to issues we've brought up here.
No recap I can do would do justice to Sir Charles. It will probably be on NPR's website for download by tomorrow though. www.npr.org Three comments he made though really touch on what we're talking about. The first was that he said whites don't have to think about race and when whites succeed or fail they aren't judged on race. So whites have a hard time understanding why blacks make a big deal about race because whites aren't prejudged on their skin color. The second was how whites who aren't consciously racist still act in a way that disproportionately benefits whites because that's who they know and without prompting wouldn't think about considering other races. He gave the example of his agent who he's known for 20 years and in that time has never hired a black guy. Not because he's racist but because he hires people like his son and others he knows or is referred to and all those people are white. Its never occured to him that he should look further to hiring people of other races. The last part is in regards to black culture. He said that blacks these days have failed to take advantage of the gains that previous blacks fought for. He said that it was flat out ignorance among blacks and other minorities to distrust education and upward mobility as selling out to white america.
good post. The problem is dealt with in modern psychology as well. If someone is told over and over that they are supposed to be bad at something(like academics), they will start to believe it. Also if someone is told they are inherently good at something ( like sports) they will believe they rightly belong on the playing field. What must be done for anyone trying to better themselves, in what ever manner that might be, is they need some sort of mentor or leader to look up to in that respective field. So they can say, "if he can do it, I can do it"
We're so geared towards racial stereotypes that we've overlooked the growing wealth gap between the richest 1% and the poor. Racist ideology fits the mold of divide and conquer while the real parties at play lay unassailable. I find it disturbing that popular black comedians can make offhand joking comments that people like Condeleza Rice or Colon Powell aren't officially black anymore and the laughter it generates from everyone in the audience. Are Powell and Rice looking for white interests or the interests of the wealthy? Then there's the topic of some personalities sniping Will Smith which is another discussion altogether.... So you'd think that minority groups like the NAACP would actively address the class issues beyond blacks, but they seem focused on some warped form of solidarity where they can tolerate the likes of Russell Simmons more often than they will stand up to him. This is the guy who has a company ironically called the Heritage Network when he has been a great destroyer and exploiter of the Black community while building up his billion dollar empire. The only reason why some minorities will tolerate it is because he's rich and because now he's has some high profile philanthropic causes... despite starting and perpetuating the snowball in the exploitation and corruption of black culture. The whole "tolerating ill gotten means towards getting rich" ideology in general reminds me of how poor Southerners fought for slavery even though a select minority even owned slaves, just to keep that dream of making it rich alive. That's all I have to say about that...
IIRC, some statistics were released very recently (last couple of weeks) about college graduates...and white women actually finished below black women in terms of starting salary. I could be mistaken - but the stats did indicate that white women are being disadvantaged slightly compared to other disenfranchised groups.
A great, great post. I hate like hell being as old as I am, although I'm a little younger than you, AggieRocket, thank god , but I'm glad I'm old enough to have witnessed this, and to know, in my gut, that it isn't some damned bedtime story made up so that those who didn't experience it, or don't want to think about it because it makes them uncomfortable... those who wish to believe that things are just fine now, and all you have to do is work hard and get off your lazy ass... that those people don't know what the hell they're talking about. People, you have no idea. I saw things I still have a hard time believing, but it was real, and for many, it was hell. Remember the past and the sacrifices those before you made. Don't come up with these tired clichés. It will set you free. Keep D&D Civil!!
