Good post, but I believe you're mistaken. Woods invented telegraphony, which to my understanding combined features of the telephone and telegraph to improve their performance.
Yes it was called the telegraphony. But it was also superior to the telephone, and Bell later had to buy the patent from Woods. The fact that it had a different name doesn't mean it wasn't a superior product that preceded what Bell did with the phone. There are certain websites that go ahead and call it a telephone. It's semantics at that point, and you are correct in stating the name is officially 'telegraphony'. But the larger point still exists that students don't learn this stuff. I'm honestly not trying to say that it has to be one race did more than another race, but for children's self esteem and self image it can make a difference. If white children learn that they wrote the constitution, fought the war for independence, invented everything under the sun etc. while black children learn they were slaves, and aren't mentioned again too much until there's a blurb in the textbook about MLK, it's not an accurate representation of history. Like I said, there doesn't even have to be a special effort to point out the race of the inventors, patriots etc. Just show their pictures along with teaching their stories, and it can change the negative stereo types that some people hold.
Man...you guys are smart. We're not Worthy! We're not Worthy! My IQ went up 10% (to 22) just reading you guys' posts.
The thing is DD Basically what you saying is well . .. racism is bad [correct] It is still out there . . . BUT IT WILL EVENTUALLY WILL GO AWAY Black folx just need to be patient and keep taking it until that day [waiting over 400 years is not long enough] If reparations comes up . . white folx will be pissed which will make racism worse in your opinion well Everyone saying Black folx Suck it up . . in time you will be equal . . .make black folx more racist toward white folx You can say it is a cop out for a black man to think/say HEY . . I didn't get that because of racism but it is seen as honest to say the black guy got it because of Affirmative Action I cannot get a job on my own. . .. but if i don't get it .. . well it is my own fault??? Rocket River
River, I never said it was an elegant answer, just that IMHO that is the only way it will ever go away. Affirmative action, while well meaning, is discrimanatory against certain people and beneficial to others. This is not fair, laws should be made that protect everyone regardless of skin color. Yes, I see that Racism exists, and is horrible, and by no means am I saying suck it up....point it out at every point you see....this is exactly what I am doing...pointing out the racism by this NY politician. Racism is wrong and as more and more lights get shined on it, the cockroaches will scatter. It just takes time....and I would say we have made a HECK of a lot more progress in the last 40 years then the previous 400, so that is a great start. DD
The last 40 years have been Phenominal. ALOT of oldhead white folx harbor alot of ill will about it. It seems like you trying to be sympathetic to folx feelings. I guess I'm results driven. Let's make it fair. . then worry about the sore feelings. Mainly, because i feel that no one gave a d*mn about OUR sore feelings back in the day [or even today]. It comes across alot of times that folx are OK with the minorities getting the shaft. . but when they decide to give the shaft to the majority and allow the minority a opportunity . . .everyone screams bloody murder. Not saying you in particular . . . but it seems kind of one sided most times. Rocket RIver
River, I am in favor of a completely level playing feild....I want merit as the only measuring stick. I do not want to keep hitting the tether ball back and forth, it is time to simply cut it loose. DD
The progress of the last 40 years was a direct result of activism -- which is the opposite of your strategy of do-nothing-and-hope-for-the-bestism.
Batman, I don't advocate "DO NOTHING" I advocate making laws that effect everyone and do not give an advantage to anyone based on skin tone. Point out racism, don't do business with them, but do not legislate it out as that will only cause more headaches for everyone. DD
I'll try different words. The advances of the last 40 years were due, in very large part, to legislation aimed at leveling the playing field -- legislation which you would call discriminatory. Your approach is akin to Bush's thousand points of light -- let individuals change the world based on their collective disdain for racism, but don't let the government or courts concern themselves with what is still an uneven playing field. I can't even believe I'm still reading this thread though. I won't post to it anymore. I just found it amazing that you could hold the positions you do and still find a way to laud the last 40 years' advances -- specifically because they were accomplished by methods which are the opposite of what you propose. That's all. Bye.
Like DaDa, I don't believe in discriminatory legislation. Everyone talks about leveling the playing field, but they mean at least two different things. One group, which I belong to, feels that the laws should be the same for everyone, and that eveything provided by the government should be the same for everyone. Another group feels the legislation must be enacted that closes the wealth gap. Timing's charts (from another thread) are in support of this viewpoint. A lot of the same language is used, but people are really talking about different things. People say fair. When I say fair I mean everyone is the same under the law. When others say fair, they mean hold down the people whose ancestors benefitted so the others can catch up. Both are fair in ways and unfair in others. I see my wway as more fair. People say give everyone the same opportunities. To me this means, do not consider race. To others, it means try extra hard to get minorities when possible. There are probably different views than these, but I think this covers the two main camps. Am I naieve in thinking that the best way to stamp out racism is to eliminate race as a consideration everywhere that we control said considerations? Maybe, maybe no. Is the best way to eliminate racism by institutionalizing it in favor of minorities, I would think not. I think Rocket River made my argument as well as I can when he said that it would "make white folx pissed" if there are reparations (which I think is applicable in any race based legislation, not just reparations as they have been discussed many times here). He the said that "Everyone saying suck it up" would make blacks more racist to whites. I think that he is calling racism inevitable, and is in fact arguing for the course of action that would engender more racism toward black people by white people. Thus, his concern (and by extension others that espouse the same philosophy/tactics) is not with ending racism, but for trying to help minorities because they are minorities. In effect, he is saying that the white people have had their time and it is time for the black people to benefit. I say lets learn from our mistakes and not reverse the situation, instead lets eradicate it. In regard to the idea that Batman put forward, that the progress has been the result of racist legislation, I disagree. I do not think that ending segregation, to me the most important advance in race relations runs counter to DaDa's approach at all. In fact, ending segragation is a perfect example of the kind of law that I (and from his posts DaDakota) support. The kind of law that truly makes things equal.
Batman, I'm glad you stepped in on this one. It's one hell of a sticky subject, but I know you'll see to it that everyone agrees in the end. DaDakota, I used to really dislike you after an Alcohol vs. mar1juana thread quite a few months ago, but since then you've definitely grown on me. I see where I agree with you on this one and I see where I disagree with you. Most aren't going to agree with either of us, Timing, Kagy, Batman or anyone; because everyone has their own opinion. We're all definitely stubborn and we're not going to outwardly admit that someone modified our opinions on this, but trust me people are thinking. I guarantee you I am, and I know you are too. Maybe we'll come to a common ground by the end. But let's not prove Jeff right here, he said this thread would get out of hand. I'm sure he wants to be proven wrong if it's not too late already.
"Two wrong don't make a right" - statement used mostly by the person who did the 1st wrong. You say learn from the mistake of whites getting ahead at the expense of minorities [black folx in particular] which essense saying . . . don't right the wrong. . . just move on. Hell, why even have prisons? Just let the crooks say HEY . . MY BAD . . LET'S LEARN FROM THIS . . . . AND MOVE ON Man this could work in so many things.. . . Sorry i left a scalpel in ya pops and he died. . MY BAD . . .LET'S LEARN FROM THIS . . .AND MOVE ON. . . Hydra it is easy for the one on the GOOD SIDE of the situation to say LET'S JUST MOVE ON . . . Rocket River hey .. . think the women at the Rape shelter will buy this one ????
River, All of the situations that you mentioned are criminals going unpunished for a crime, and the solutions are normal, legal punishments. No one is suggesting that congress should pass laws to hold the black man down, only that they don't pass laws to hold others down. It seems like the only solution that would be satisfactory to you is to start everyone over with the same amount of everything and let it run from there. I guess my problem (and probably others' as well) with your sol,ution is that to me you are saying, Hydra hasn't earned what he has, it is all residual benefits from oppressing minorities, so he should have to give something up so everyone can be even. Since I come from a single parent home and my mom is a teacher (notoriously underpaid profession), I don't happen to agree that I haven't worked for what I've got. So, I am not saying don't right the wrong. I am saying the wrong has been righted. No one is getting ahead at the expense of minorities now, and any legislation that does pass in the vein that you seem to suggest would largely punish those that have never done anything wrong and have not benefitted at the expense of minorities.
You feel I'm saying - You didn't earn yours but you guys are saying - We just lazy . . should work harder How has the wrong been righted? If you start a race. Hold one person back for half a lap. THen allow them to run with chains on for half a lap. THEN TAKE THE CHAINS OFF. Has the wrong been righted? He is unflettered now. Just like the other runners .. so he has a fair chance to win now? Right? Rocket River "If you stick a nine inch blade in my back . .. and take it out 6 inches. . . THAT IS NOT PROGRESS . . it is not Progress until you take it all the out and start to heal it." - Malcom X [paraphrased]
Because the current generation was not held back for a half lap, and then forced to run in chains for a half lap. At worst they were forced to train in a crappy gym beforehand, but the rules of the race are the same for everyone. Because they had substandard training conditions, does not mean that they should be given a headstart. I do not think black people are lazy, nor have I ever insinuated as much. I think that poor people start of with an inherent disadvantage, and that they must work harder than the more priviledged in order to catch up. I am not even opposed to providing access to the same schools that the rich kids go to. I wholeheartedly support accountability in education. I don't base any of this on race though. To say that black people cannot catch up is to discount the likes of Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, Charles Barkley, Condaleeza(Sp?) Rice, and Colin Powell. The opportunities are there, but you have to be able to recognize them and take them. I would hope for some way to stress the importance of education in inner city schools. To make learning cool, so to speak. Until people realize that education is their best way out of poverty, I don't think any government program is going to get them where they need to be.
Well some of the people you mentioned are the exception to the rule. Powell is a product of affirmative action, and is strongly in favor of affirmative action. I think it shows that even with affirmative action, it's not like the people are just being handed things. They still have to work hard etc. Also affirmative action is never mandatory unless the institutions have a proven history of racism. Most places volunteer to have various forms of affirmative action. And it's true that it's not always solely out of the goodness of their hearts. Their incentives for companies and institutions that institute such policies, but still it's not mandatory unless there is proven racism.
How can you seriously say these things? Whites have 7 times the median net worth of blacks. That didn't just happen in one generation, that's an accumulation of wealth over time when minorities were in fact held down by laws and racism. All of this completely contradicts any notion of equality or equal opportunity in this country. You want to start the race after minorities have already been lapped a few times and then you say okay there, you have chance to win the race but you just have to run twice as fast to catch up because you got screwed over at the starting line, not to mention you might have to jump through a few racial hoops that whites don't have to deal with.
What a bunch of crap. Just because people with white skin have 7 times the wealth does not mean they are running around putting that wealth in the pockets of WHITE people only. My family did not come from wealth, and I had to work very hard to get where I am. Do some people have farther to go then others....YOU BET !! But, that does not mean it is impossible. Timing, why don't you get past the race thing and do us a chart on how much money RICH people have versus poor folks, that is more relavent. I am not sure what you are saying, that because some WHITE FOLX have a bunch of money, that someone should level the playing field HOW exactly? Race has NOTHING to do with it, what you are talking about is the HAVES and the HAVE NOTS, and that has been the case forever, and I am working VERY VERY hard to become one of the haves......and anyone is welcome to make a go of it too, white or black. Here is a question for you...since white people have SEVEN times the wealth, how many more WHITE people are there in America...if it is SEVEN times or more, then your argument (However weak it is) falls completely apart, because the median range of people is much smaller in the black community. DD
