Just to clarify: The Pharisees did not believe that Jesus was the messiah, but many common Jews DID; they became the first Christians.
The sky is blue becasue that is the way you perceive it to be. It is blue, but it is also much more. You are a carbon based being, for the moment, but you are also much more. "I am large, I contain multitudes." - Walt Whitman
i'm not doubting that i'm more than a carbon based being....i'm a father...i'm a son...i'm a houstonian...i'm a lot of things. that's beside the point. the point is that i'm objectively a carbon based being...there might be other truths about me, but it doesn't diminish the truth that i'm a carbon-based being. do we really want to do this?? we've done this before...and it just seems like quirky word games to me where we both pretend we're smarter than we really are. that, of course, is merely my perception.
Who's Pretending? The problem is one person can say "I am a carbon based being and that is the truth", and another will say "no you are a father, and that is the truth". We then fight wars over this when the ultimate reality is greater than all our conceptions. "People kill and are killed because they cling too tightly to their own beliefs and ideologies. When we believe that ours is the only faith that contains the truth, violence and suffering will surely be the result. " - Thich Nhat Hanh
those aren't conflicting truths. it would be conflicting truths to say, "i'm carbon based" and for you to respond by saying, "no you aren't." and then we'd both say..."well, we're both right."
And I would agree. Can you have more than one absolute reality? I am honestly asking. I don't see how. THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT - a Story from the Buddhist Sutra Several citizens ran into a hot argument about God and different religions, and each one could not agree to a common answer. So they came to the Lord Buddha to find out what exactly God looks like. The Buddha asked his disciples to get a large magnificent elephant and four blind men. He then brought the four blind to the elephant and told them to find out what the elephant would "look" like. The first blind men touched the elephant leg and reported that it "looked" like a pillar. The second blind man touched the elephant tummy and said that an elephant was a wall. The third blind man touched the elephant ear and said that it was a piece of cloth. The fourth blind man hold on to the tail and described the elephant as a piece of rope. And all of them ran into a hot argument about the "appearance" of an elephant. The Buddha asked the citizens: "Each blind man had touched the elephant but each of them gives a different description of the animal. Which answer is right?" "All of them are right," was the reply. "Why? Because everyone can only see part of the elephant. They are not able to see the whole animal. The same applies to God and to religions. No one will see Him completely." By this parable, the Lord Buddha teaches that we should respect all other ligitimate religions and their beliefs.
I've read the elephant story many times...had it preached to me many times. But this ignores the possiblity that Jesus Christ is what the Bible presents him to be. That he does reveal a God with some particular characterstics. It ignores the possibility that Muhammed really did talk to God. That God really did reveal himself through Muhammed. Or that he revealed himself through any other prophet in history. And that there are some very real characteristics which would stand in stark contrast to the idea that "we're all right even when we present facts about God completely in contradiction of one another." To the Christian and the Muslim, these are historical events. Truth because they happened. The same way it's truth that I had enchiladas for lunch today, no matter what your subjective interpretation of my lunch might be. The Christian and Muslim disagree ON THE FACTS. Muslims would say that Christ actually did not die on the cross..that he was never crucified. This is a question of fact, only. It either happened...or it didn't. Subjective interpretation is irrelevant. That's my point really in its entirety. In attempting to be open, progressive and accepting, the idea that "we're all right about who God is, no matter what we say, because God is nothing more than our perception" ultimately is anything but to the Christian or the Muslim.
I try to say that god, or the ultimate reality, transcends any of our conceptions of it, but oh well.... If you deny the truth that exists in other religions, you deny it in yours as well. "Life is very simple: we are living in a world that is absolutely transparent to God and God is shining through it all the time. This is not a fable or a nice story. It is true. God manifests himself everywhere, in every thing, in people and in things and in nature and in events. You cannot be without God. It's impossible. Simply impossible." - Thomas Merton The Judeo-Christian tradition, or any other, does not own the way and shouldn't think it does. For some, Truth is a fortress, square and strong, In which, once entered, safety lies. Only like-minded people dwell there, none disturb The calm and certain sureties of belief. Outside, the world pursues its way, its noise and Clamour offering small attraction to those Whose knowledge keeps them safe beyond the Drawbridge of conviction. If any try to breach the Bastions of tradition, they are repelled with Boiling scorn. Truth is impregnable. For others, Truth is both journey and Discovery, a Way which leads and Urges without rest. No castle for retreat, but Camps, where fellow pilgrims join To take refreshment in each other's Company. Assorted in experience, they Enrich, enlighten, challenge and Go on further exploration. Travelling light. Knowing that in this life All is provisional; seeking fulfilment, The end and explanation of the quest. - Ann Lewin
sure, that's a factor to consider....absolutely. but it doesn't mean we haven't been moved further along the spectrum of knowing who God truly is if that revelation was genuine. as opposed to sitting around and saying, "well, we can't really know God...and God is everything...which is ultimately to say he's nothing." again...word games. meowgi -- ultimately you believe God can't be understood. we just disagree on that. i believe God can't be fully understood...that the infinite can never fully be understood by the finite. but i believe that there has been a revelation of God that has allowed me to understand more of God than I would have otherwise known. and in my life, i've experienced that. it's not just talking over a message board in some hypothetical way...this is truly my experience. as i've said before, perhaps i've tricked myself...that there's some delusion. but i don't believe so.
He's hovering somewhere in between a Platonic and Aristotelian verrsion of God, which if you don't believe the Bible to be revealed, isn't too bad?
Well, if this isn't the case than please correct me MR. M, he's discrediting the Bible as just myth, or elaborate prose rather than something inspired by God; then he'll really only be able to have a conception of God in the realm of philosophy, which was already done by the afforementioned Plato and Aristotle, the former thinking that there was a form of the good (which was basically God) outside of being that informs being but is beyond it to something that is not able to be put into words, the latter thinking there was a God in being as being qua being, that which informs being and pulls being into it. I was just mentioning that Meowgs seems to be floating in betwixt the two, leaning closer to a Platonic view. Still if he refuses to acknowledge any revelation than this is really the best the mind can do in terms of conceptions of God. Think Rapheal's School of Athens Painting where you have Plato and Aristotle in the middle, Plato pointing up to something that is beyond being, Aristotle saying no, it is here around us....
Your arrogance and smugness is a bit over the top. I think it is too bad people like you will never get to truly experience the joys of other religious traditions. Like I have said before, I think "God" reveals itself right now, this very moment. It is not the monopolized god by any particular religion, but rather the sum of them all. Gandhi said that one can find the deeper roots of one’s own religious tradition by becoming immersed in other religions--and then returning “home” to see one’s own heritage in a transformed way, with a transformed consciousness. Thomas Merton was a Roman Catholic priest and a Trappist monk. He once said "I will be the best Buddhist I can be." Too bad there are not more like him.
First off I never questioned the assertion that you made that other faiths contain truth. We've had this discussion before. Maybe I am being a little arrogant before but its just because you seem to be on teh verge of some great discovery, one that looks to me to be of a very religious, quasi-Christian discovery; but that you don't want to limit because you think those words define and limit the experience or revealing of God, and so I see you dart around these philosophic ideals, which are very good, very well organized, yet missing the "fullness" of what is being said. Second- there's a lot of truth to what Ghandi says, not arguing that. Third- Father Merton would be the first to tell you that Christ and the Catholic Church contain the fullness of Christ and God's revealing to man, so I think using his quote about becoming a good Buddhist kind of puts it out of context. A great passage about this is from Vatican II, and baptism by desire, which the church completely realizes in other cultures and faiths, but of which the fullness is found in its teachings and the Mystical Body of Christ.
