here's another point. quick trivia question. Name the championships won with only 1 HOFer? b**** about #33 all you want, but he will be a HOFer and was an outstanding defender, and he was in his prime, plus Rodman is one, but they might cheat him out of it out of spite.
Charles Jones was what, 6'8" 220? He was a pretty good defensive center (see our playoff run in 95). Dennis Rodman was the same size as Russell. Rodhead was a great defensive player on 4s and 5s. Wilt dominated for the same reason Shaq does today. Pure unadulterated strenght. Who says Hakeem could have defended Wilt? Hakeem never stopped Shaq, and that was in Shaqs first few years and before he bulked up. Wilt was a good defensive player based purely on his size. He wasnt as good as Hakeem defensively, but he was pretty superior offensively.
The second championship year we had Clyde and Hakeem, we wouldn't even come CLOSE to winning it if we didn't trade for Clyde... On the first championship, Hakeem was the only Hall of Famer BUT we were EXTREMELY close to losing to the Knicks, who only had one Hall of Famer on that team only also. Since Jordon was retired, of all the teams that were in the playoffs that year, how many teams had two hall of famers on their team? Just curious...
Hey codell, I mean Homer, no, I mean simpson? Whatever!! A quote from the great Wilt Chamberlain- Your never at your best till your laid to rest. Hakeem is the ALL-Time LEADING shot blocker, steals,and rebounds for centers in an era where there were more athletic centers and he didn't have to sleep with 1,000,000 women to do so.Come on! do you think Russell,Wilt,and Kareem would have won ALL of those championships,scoring accomplishments,rebounds in one game,and legendary dominance in Hakeem's era and still be sooooo glorified? Or should I say Ewing's, Shaq's,Robinson's,Mourning's,Mutumbo's,Moses Malone's era? To go along with having to deal with the likes of Jordan,Magic,Larry,Isaih,Karl Malone,Dominique and the rest of the future Hall of Famers? Boy, how did you guys get your membership to this website? I guess we have no standards! How can you guys have all of those opinions and not seen Hakeem play enough to determine whether or not he deserves to in the ranks with those players. Hell, if Rodman played in Russell's era, He could have accomplished those same rebounding and defensive wonders and made them want to fight when he played those mind games like grabbing their ass or blowing them a kiss.
And what if Lanier, Cousy, Havlicek, Hawkins, Erving, Malone, Hayes, Mikan, Barry, Baylor, Cowens, etc. had to play in Hakeem's era? Its all relative my friend. And who are all these athletic centers you are talking about? Robinson, Ewing, Mutombo? Hakeem had his fair share of competition just like Wilt, Kareem and Russell had. And in the same way you assume that Russell, Kareem and Wilt wouldnt put up the same numbers or win as many championships in Hakeem's area, the same logic would apply to Hakeem if you played in their era. Unfortunately, none of these guys played in Hakeem's area so all we can go by to compare them is by their stats, championships, etc. So you are saying that because I think that Hakeem is #4 center behind Wilt, Kareem and Russell that I dont deserve a membership to this site? You need to do your homework. You will find that a great majority of people outside of this forum, feel the same way. Youll have a hard time finding an NBA expert that has Hakeem as the #1 all time center.
I don't think Chamberlein or Russell carried their teams to each and every championship. Nor Jabbar. They didn't just have role players, they had great players around them. If they lost those players, their teams would still be contenders. Take Jordon from the Bulls, and we see what happens...they are mediocre. Take Hakeem away from those Championship teams, and I doubt they make the playoffs either year. Jordon is great because he was so good that he could win with a bunch of role players (which is what Pippen turned out to be after all). By the same Token, Hakeem took quality role players (and Cylde is the soul expection to this), and brought them championships. Why doesn't other people in sports give him credit? He wasn't a personality, nor was ever an icon that others were. Even when he won, he wasn't poster child. Imagine if Hakeem had played with Cylde Drexler from the beginning (which would have happened if Rodney Mac wasn't drafted ahead of Cylde). How many championships would those two have won? Phi Slamma Jamma in the NBA? Olajuwon's place would be completely higher. I bet Houston wouldn't just be a team that won two championships...it would have been one of the all-time great teams. 1995-6 was a window into something we were robbed for a decade. One championship or 11...greatness can be defined in a moment, in a game, in a series, or a year, or even the length of a career. Hakeem did it all. And deserves to sit amongst the kings. It's not his stats, just like it's not Jordon's stats. (And Jordon was considered the greatest ever after his first retirement with only 3 championships). Both of these guys brought elsewise mediocre teams and turned them into gold. Iverson couldn't do that. Shaq couldn't do it by himself in Orlando, and certainly not before Kobe. Barkeley couldn't do it. Malone + Stockton couldn't do it. Miller? no way. Patrick Ewing? Nope. Jason Kidd? Not even close. Who did he have on his original team? Maxwell Horry K Smith/Cassell Thorpe At the time...all quality role players The second championship the had Clyde, because maxwell went nuts. And they had a pf named Chucky Brown. Dude, they didn't even have a power forward, they used CARL JONES for god's sake man!
I agree with alot of that. But Ewing only had Starks (his stats werent much better than Maxwells) and Barkley single handedly took the Suns to the finals as did Iverson. Im a big Hakeem backer, hes my fav player of all time and in reality, he probably doesnt get his due props. But there are alot of players that would be picked ahead of Hakeem for a winner take all championship game.
The second championship, We were around .500 and we are not even sure if we were going to make the playoffs that year until we traded for Clyde midseason. We really sucked that year up until that trade... As for the first championship year: I think we lost two home games to Phoenix and we were on the brink of elimination. Remember "Choke City"? When we travelled to Phoenix, our backs were against the wall and Maxwell, Horry, K Smith, Cassell and Thorpe just went nuts. I remember Maxwell hitting everything he threw up....We would have been eliminated if it wasn't for the the choke city article. These so called role players were taking turns hitting extremely clutch shots throughout that playoff, its not like Hakeem carried them on their backs throughout...If you take ONE of these players out during that stretch, we wouldn't won the championship.
really who cares? i mean because an espn insider or whatever tells me hakeem is not as good as kareem that makes it right? no doubt in my mind that if dream was an american born icon who won 2 championships for the knicks in the mid-nineties, he'd be as heralded as whomever. i can't say if he's better than wilt, russell, jabbar but i do think it's unfair to keep him out of that "sacred" circle. he's every bit their equal and nothing will ever change my mind about that. as far as carrying teams, not to take anything at all away from jordan, but leave him off and pippen leads the bulls to the playoffs every year. they don't win anything but could the same be said for hakeem's teams? he had nothing. barkley too had a premier, drop 40 on you any given night, pg in kevin johnson so he didn't exactly do it single-handedly, though he was incredible.
so what, brian shaw hit 3 HUGE 3's in LA's 16 point comeback against the blazers in game 7 in 2000. i guess shaq and kobe shouldn't get any credit. derek fisher hit huge shot after huge shot in 2001. robert horry (damn you for this) saved the lakers against the kings last year (along with dick bavetta) with that shot in game 4. steve kerr hit a last second shot against **** once in the finals. all championship teams have role players step up. that's why those teams are champions. but none of those role players would get to shine if the stars weren't busy carrying the team for the rest of the game.
I understand that, the reason why I posted that is to counter some other people's point that he carried that team single handedly that year with no other stars, which he did only to a certain extent...I'm just saying it was a team effort that year. If you are right about that pre/post trade record, I have one horrible memory...But our team was pretty stagnant the whole year until the very end of the regular season and the beginning of the playoffs...
I never said Hakeem doesnt deserve to be in the "sacred circle". I just said I thought he was #4 behind the other 3. Remember, 1-3 can all be closely debated. Obviously, NBA historians and experts have never agreed, even in a minor majority, on who the #1 center is, much less how they rank 1-3. But outside of this city, its rare to see any of them rank Hakeem #1, and I dont think it has anything to do with his ethnicity or what city he played in. Look at Oscar Robertson. He played in Milwaukee and was black. Yet hes always ranked amount the top point guards ever. I think what is, is that if you look at history, players are really rated on their stats and championships and based on such, those other 3 centers have an edge on Hakeem, even if its only slight. In the end, Russell, Wilt, Kareem and Hakeem are in a class of their own.
You consistently give out bad/misleading info. Yes, he played in MW. He played in Cinncinati first. What does being black have anything to do with it? and what is this WAS black? Did he turn white up there? Oscar was not a "point guard". Stop already...
The Barkley comment proves you don't know NBA history, and the Iverson comment proves you are exaggerating the significance of the Leastern Conference that year. As for Ewing.. Ewing had the best defensive team in the league (extremely deep), AND a league that was allowing them to take mugging to a new level. Anthony Mason was no push over and neither was Oakley in his prime. They changed the rules FOR that team, and changed them back after that team. Jordan is by no means just plowing through the Knicks. At that point, the Knicks were off a 6game loss and 7 game loss against the Bulls in two previous playoff series in 92 and 93, and the Knicks added Derek Harper that season. If you can say the Rockets barely got passed the Knicks, well, I can say that the Bulls barely got by the Knicks. The league was so geared for the Knicks to beat Chicago, and it was going to happen that year. I am so allowed to say that, if you are allowed to say Jordan simply would have won. Fact remains, only Hakeem won with one HOFer dating back to probably Dennis Johnson and an aging Paul Silas in 79. That is 23 yrs of Finals with only the Dream breaking through as a single HOFer winner. Cut the crap about it being an asterix victory. It was the Knick's year with or without Jordan. Other fact remains, give Hakeem another HOFer, in Drexler, and look what he did...the most incredible playoff display ever (from a 6th seed) and a SWEEP in the Finals. With Sampson he destroyed arguable the best dynasty ever in Magic's Lakers, and takes the arguably the single best team (1986 Celtics) to 6 games.
#1 I said Oscar played in Milwaukee. I did not say thats the only team he played on. You love semantics dont you? If you read all the previous threads, some said that Hakeem didnt get a fair shake because of his ethnicity and I was merely making a point that that is cop out and that ethnicity has nothing to do with where players rank in history. Oscar was a point guard my friend. If you watch footage of him playing (i.e. always had the ball in his hands brining it up the court) and look at his stats (10 assists a game), its pretty obvious he was. In fact, heres a tid bit from the hoop hall website: Bio: Whenever basketball discussions turn to naming the greatest player in history, Oscar Robertson's name is always prominently mentioned. Red Auerbach, who coached a slew of Hall of Famers with the Boston Celtics, rates Robertson as the best, most versatile player he has ever seen. Most other basketball experts would agree: the "Big O" could do it all. He was an unstoppable offensive player; one who could score from every spot on the court and in any manner he saw fit. Robertson's offensive prowess changed the point guard stereotype from simply a passer and "floor general" to a scorer and offensive weapon. Robertson truly had a presence on the court. A three-time All-State selection at Indianapolis' Crispus Attucks High School, the "Big O" was heavily recruited and opted to remain close to home at the University of Cincinnati. Robertson's collegiate career (1957-60) was historic: he established 19 school and 14 NCAA records and led the Bearcats to a 79-9 record and two straight NCAA tournament third place finishes in 1959 and 1960. A three-time College Player of the Year and national scoring leader at Cincinnati, Robertson scored 2,973 points (33.8 ppg), placing him seventh all-time in NCAA history. Robertson co-captained the 1960 United States Olympic gold medal team-considered by many as the greatest assemblage of amateur talent ever-before beginning a prolific 14-year NBA career with the Cincinnati Royals and Milwaukee Bucks. As a rookie in 1961, Robertson won the first of three All-Star Game MVP awards (1961, 1964, 1969) along with being named Rookie of the Year. Robertson captured the 1964 NBA MVP Award with impressive numbers, 31.4 ppg, 11.0 apg and 9.9 rpg, but the "Big O's" best statistical season came in 1961-62. Oscar averaged a triple double for the entire season, averaging 30.8 ppg, 11.4 apg and 12.5 rpg, a feat that has never been duplicated. He earned All-NBA honors 11 times and led the Royals and the Bucks to 10 playoff berths. In 1971, Robertson teamed with Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) to land Milwaukee its only NBA title, the Bucks' third year as a professional franchise. Robertson concluded his career with 26,710 points (25.7 per game), 9,887 assists (9.5 per game) and 7,804 rebounds (7.5 per game). Upon retirement, Robertson left a lasting impression on the NBA record books as the all-time leader in career assists and free throws made. Sounds to me they historians have him as a point guard. =)
BigM, I think what Codell is trying to say is that the average of reporters/writers outside Houston would be more *objective* about who is the best center ever. Rather than picking Hakeem for pure sentimental reasons. Not everyone is biased, you know?
Oscar was more of a point forward. I watched him play, so I'm a historian too... . He was a "small forward" They just wanted the ball in his hands all the time because he was so great. Well why didn't you say that instead of that other gibberish?
Watch ESPN classic next time they do a replay of the all time 50 greats. They constantly refer to him as a point guard. Im looking right here at a Sporting News NBA Almanac. Hes listed as a point guard. Im not saying he never played the 3. But hes remembered as being a point guard.
DavidS, <i>BigM, I think what Codell is trying to say is that the average of reporters/writers outside Houston would be more *objective* about who is the best center ever. </I> What? so it is the sportwriters who are the judge. Remember, sportwriters vote on MVPs, and they gave one to David Robinson and Malone, as lifetime achievement awards. And even if you want to say that sportwriter's opinion is what this thread is about...your comment about the ave one sorta makes sense until you realize that the average sports writer is drowned out by NY and LA sportwriters and TV journalists. The better way of saying it that the average fan favors stats and nostalgia (George Mikan, anyone) as a crutch for claiming correctness. Many scouts, GMs, players and coaches ignore the stats stuff and simply go with who was freaking unstoppable against the best competition.
