I think Hakeem not only grew into a player, his leadership by example and his ability to mesh with and make those around him perform at ahigher level improved immensely.
You remembered that problem with Barkley and Pippen on the same team? I admit they were kinda passed their prime a little bit, but Hakeem didn't lead these guys anywhere...we had three 50 greatest players of all time on the same team! It could be the system or injuries, but still if he had some of Russell's leadership skills in him, we would have gone a long ways...
I think they were all past their prime. What did any of them do after that? Hakeem wasn't able to carry them that year, it was just too late...
I've only got to see Chamberlain and Russell on NBA TV and ESPN. One thing I noticed is that no one ever played defense then. They also never double teamed anyone. I think any great one on one player from the modern error would kill anyone from that error. I just can't imagine Cousy or even West trying to cover Cat or Francis without any help. Cat and Francis would have scored 50 points a game on those guys on a regular basis. Dream definitely belongs in the top three because he dominated against Kareem who is considered one of the top three before Dream developed his offensive game. He also did it against Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq. And none of these players tried to cover him one on one.
That was a small part of the reason and not all...they were all still VERY capable of scoring and rebounding in bunches, they were still considered one of the best at their respective positions....They were all playing great the year before, how come they couldn't play together when they were on the same team?
Hakeem destroyed Seattle in '93. In '96 the team could not make shots and Hakeem was not at 100 percent. The other two times they played Seattle in the playoffs, George Karl was not the coach, so the defense was not the same, but Akeem still destroyed them. It should be noted that there were not 23-29 teams in the league during the Wilt/Russell "midget era". As you can imagine, a championship is much easier to get when you're only going against 7 other teams, as opposed to 22-28.
Im tired of hearing about how Russell wouldnt keep up with Hakeem offensively. Its not about direct match ups ya know. Look at Russell's accomplishments. Won an amazing 11 NBA championships with Boston Celtics in 13 seasons (1957, 1959-66, 1968-69) NBA Most Valuable Player (1958, 1961-63, 1965) All-NBA First Team (1959, 1963, 1965) All-NBA Second Team (1958, 1960-62, 1964, 1966-68) NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969) Twelve-time NBA All-Star (1958-69) MVP All-Star Game (1963) after 19 points and 24 rebounds Holds the NBA single-game record for most rebounds in a half (32) vs. Philadelphia on Nov. 16, 1957 Celtics's all-time leading rebounder (21,620, 22.5 rpg) in 963 games; second best in history Holds career playoff record for most rebounds (4,104, 24.9 rpg) in 165 games Holds NBA Finals record for highest rebound per game average (29.5 rpg, 1959) and by a rookie (22.9 rpg, 1957) Holds NBA Finals single-game record for most free throws attempted in one half (15, April 11, 1961) vs. St. Louis; most rebounds (40, March 29, 1960 vs. St. Louis and April 18, 1962 vs. Los Angeles); most rebounds by a rookie (32, April 13, 1967 vs. St. Louis); and most rebounds in a quarter (19, April 18, 1962 vs. Los Angeles) Grabbed a career-high 51 rebounds vs. Syracuse (Feb. 5, 1960), making him one of two players ever (Wilt Chamberlain) to grab more than 50 boards in a game Had seven games with 40 or more rebounds Led the NBA in rebounding in first three seasons (19.6, 22.7, 23.0) and five times overall Led the NBA in minutes played (1959, 42.5 mpg) and in 1965 (44.5 mpg) Scored 14,522 points (15.1 ppg) in his career and averaged 16.2 ppg in 165 playoff games ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hakeem is my all time favorite player, but he couldn't touch some of Russell's numbers. Most importantly, his 11 championships. =)
Wow, only 8 teams total?? Daymn! Winning a champtionship now is so much harder now then...The 11 championship argument is REALLY overrated then...
If championships were so "easy" then why didnt any of the other 7-10 teams win 11 championships when Russell played? Does that mean the Comets 4 championships are "easy" or "overrated" cause there were only 7 or 8 other teams?
I thought there were a good 15-16 teams at that time. Winning 8 championships in a row is alot easier when there are only 8 teams instead of 20 +. But on the other hand, the talent wasn't as spread out as nowadays...
When I read stuff like this, I really, seriously don't believe a Rockets fan who like the Rockets more than the Oilers could say this. The Rockets lost soooo much chemistry by nothing that Akeem did. They lost 4 starters to injury or cocaine after 1986. There is nothing Akeem could have done differently to offset that really strange team circumstances he was enveloped in. ....Akeem destroyed the league waaaay early, just like Jordan did. I consider this a weird way of interpreting things. Everyone knows that Jordan dominated before he started winning championships. Hakeem did, too, but even rockets fans buy into this whole "he didn't start learning how to win" thing like that erases the fact he freaking dominated when his team sucked more that Jordans. Nobody slights Jordan for those yrs, they remain part of his legacy, but with Hakeem, we say...."Oh, he was raw and not that good until 1994." PUKE PUKE PUKE that is sooooooooooo wrong! Hakeem killed the Lakers his second yr in 1986, and then was FIRST team All-NBA center the next 3yrs, and was the first person since Kareem to lead the league in rebounds 3 yrs in a row. Now, that 4th yr (if I'm not mistaken) he was leading the league again when Cartwright nailed him and put him in the emergency room. Not everyone can come back from an injury like that. And not every team can lose 3 starters to cocaine and not let it phase them. And Akeem kept destroying everyone in sight.
codell, greatness isn't just an accumulations of the most awards. Hakeem has his share. MJ is considered the greatest basketball player ever to play the game...he didn't have 11 straight championships. Jordon wasn't the all-time scoring leader either, or the highest scorer for a season. But all of us know that Jordon is the best there ever was.
I do agree with all that. And as die hard Houston fans, we do all like to think that Hakeem is better than Russell, Chamberlain or Jabbar. But why is it that weve never heard one NBA historian or bone fide expert give the opinion that Hakeem is better or as good as Russell? Ive never heard one. Greatness is about championships somewhat. If Michael Jordan had only won no or 1 championship instead of 6, he would be in Charles Barkley's and Karl Malone's class instead of the the one hes in, which is one of the top 2 or 3 all time.
That's not what I said/meant. He was very good right from the start, obviously an incredible athlete. He did improve as a player as he gained some experience, mainly offensively, which did require some honing of his skills. Obviously it didn't take him until 1994. It was unfortunate he did have some of those boneheads around him early, but he had some later too (Vernon). I said he led by example, i.e. not by being a vocal, team leader type like a Magic. He just put it all out there and inspired others to follow.
I remember the article in the Sports Illustrated Rockets commemorative issue after the '95 season about Hakeem being in the all-time game when talking about the very best centers to ever play and it still rings true to me. Hakeem in his prime completely dominated games defensively in an era that Bill Russell never had to deal with - guys taking off from the foul line to jam? How often do you think Russell in his prime would have stuffed a Dr. J. or Jordan with only a 2' height advantage? Probably never. I think the fact Hakeem is not recognized as the best defensive center of all-time is a joke. Russell has the rings and was revolutionary as a center and defensively speaking Hakeem was as much an evoltutionary leap from Russell as Russell was from Mikan. Wilt, because of his size and strength would have had a better chance competing with the guys Olajuwon had to deal with, but he always chose areas to dominate ("I'm going to lead the league in assists this year" and he did. Sick). In his prime he was accused of dogging it constantly because he was so over-poweringly dominant (50 boards in one game against Russell). Kareem and his sky-hook was and is still the most perfect NBA shot. In his prime you had to keep him more than 12' away to be able to deal with him. But Majic came along while he he was still in his prime and as we all know, that was a mess. Russell nor Jabbar were asked to carry the load on both ends of the court for their entire careers, so I'm sure Russell could have scored more than he did and Kareem really would have banged more (except against Moses) had it been expected or nessesary to win. Hakeem's ability to "Dream Shake" from out to 14' was just impossible. When he brought out that move I cringed for the first 100 times he shot it, just unbelievable. It's going to be awhile before any center busts a move in the same league as that shot. Shaq may be the last true (American, heh-heh) center but he said coming into the league he'd rather be compared to Olajuwon than anyone. Chuckle. But if in heaven someday the 10 best all-time NBA centers decide to play a pick-up game (in their primes) and name me one of the coaches (maybe this wouldn't be in heaven) and I have the first pick, I take Hakeem. Then I pray the other coach lets Moses falls to #3 and beg him to beat the hell out of the other team before he kills me for not picking him first.
That actually says alot. Wilt had 50 boards against Russell? Hakeem has never had more than 25 against Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, etc.............
The comparison with MJ is exactly one of the arguments the Hakeem doubters use. It goes like this: MJ was dominant right from the start, so was Hakeem. MJ didn't win championships until he started trusting his teammates, same with Hakeem. It is generally agreed that Hakeem started to master his passing game (not just passing, but how and when to pass) around the early 90s. I am not a Hakeem doubter. But I do think this argument has some degree of validity.
Hmmm, funny you say that. It seems like the opposite is true. How many Shaqs do you think there are to go around? 29? Just because there are 29 teams doesn't mean that there are 29 great teams. It's called a diluted league. The talent gets stretched over many teams. There are only 450+ players in the league. Very few of them are All-Stars. If we had 7 teams today, we'd have All-star teams for each of those cities.
If there any consolidation. Hakeem's legacy will grow with time. That's just how history works. History turns into legend. In due time Hakeem will get his due. Time will tell where Hakeem fits in. By the way, Shaq respects Hakeem a lot. He will surely be at Hakeems retirement ceremony. Also, can you imagine the Hall of Fame induction ceremony of the 1984 class. Can you imagine if Stockton, Barkley, Olajuawon, and Jordan all get accepted at the same time. It probably wont happen though....
What you say makes perfect sense. Dilution. Back then, with only 8 teams, that meant that each team's players 1-12 were better than today's teams 1-12. So, it championships back then were more hottley contested than they are today. =)
