Question about Hakeem's impending retirement...

many playoff series out of how many total playoff series played can you say he completely dominated to that degree? You just mentioned one, can you mention more? David Robinson series? How many more? I wonder what that percentage will be of him dominating series versus the total number of series played?

Jeez, HeyP...while your at it, find the ratio of Hakeem's arm angle throughout his career and correlate it to the improvement of his game...take the derivative of that and extrapolate the data to correspond with each year of his muscle to fat ratio. That would be helpful...can you do that?

Ok, I'll just ask you another question that makes my point more clear. During his career, how many years can you say that, "Hakeem is head and shoulders the best player in the game this year"? Once or maybe twice when he won the MVP?

This question would throw Bill Russell out of the ring of great centers b/c he wasn't 'head and shoulders' better than Wilt. Wilt was clearly the better player, but didn't have the team(like Dream), Russell admitted this MANY times in interviews...so what does head and shoulders have to do with what we are trying to
talk about? Kareem goes here as well. Was he head and shoulders the best player in the 70's? 80's? He shouldn't be if he was dominated by Cowens.

HeyP, the Sonics rattled Hakeem for many years, There's a great possibility if the Sonics were playing us in the first champtionship year, we would have lost....
The Celtics rattled the 76ers with Wilt all those years, should Wilt be cast out of the circle now?
Sorry for the sarcasm, but the questions you are asking could be applied to all great Centers...why should they only be applied to Dream?

 

we are not talking "head and shoulders above everyone else," we are talking about centers. We are not comparing him to Bird, Magic and Jordan. Quit changing the topic. He and Shaq are the most dominating centers in 20 yrs.

He was NBA 1st team center from 1987-90 while many people seem to think he was raw and still developing and it would have been 4 except for Cartwright's damn elbow. Then did it 3 more times including 96-97, and everyone knows that 1995 and 96 was his, too.

Hakeem's playoff stats in his 140 Rockets games (discounting Toronto)

26.6ppg / 11.4 rpg / 3.26 bpg at 53% shooting

85-86 playoffs already mentioned, and he dominated the 1986 Celtics in game 5 with 32pts and an NBA record 8 blocks.

86-87 playoffs 10 game ave 29.2 ppg / 11.3 rpg scored 49 pts in the elimination game to Seattle

87-88 playoffs 1st round exit to Dallas but Hakeem scored 37.5 ppg and 16.8 rpg setting an NBA record for most pts in a 4-game series

Maybe someone else can find more playoffs before the titles, but he only got more dominating, not less.

You continue to point to Hakeem only winning two championships, yet you do not accuse Wilt of that or Kareem. That is exactly the same argument people used against them in their day...that Russell rattled Wilt and Kareem couldn't win.

Seattle did not rattle Hakeem, as much as they rattled the Rockets. There is no single center who rattled Hakeem in any playoff series.

And don't even tell me to compare Ewing and Mourning head-to-head...you go do it. You are standing on no facts. Ewing and Mourning were not even close. As for Robinson, he did nothing in the playoffs, nothing. No way you can compare him to Hakeem and say "Hakeem only made a mermaid out of him once in the most embarrassing undressing in NBA history...find me another time, hp"

 

Two great posts, heypartner. That '86 WC Finals series against the Lakers was an unbelievable performance by Hakeem.

ChenZhen, you should read the quotes from Pat Riley about trying to contain Dream. He was a nightmare for them and was the focus of their game plan. Sampson and the rest of that fantastic team were huge... but Hakeem was their biggest worry. And they could do nothing.

Hell, you should read what Kareem said about playing Hakeem and Ralph. He was blown away. He would get free of Sampson and there would be Hakeem.

 

I see some similiarities in our posts, HP. Its cool that we agree on this...I still think Rice will disappoint though.

 

Good post HP, you have the numbers to back it up, I don't. For some reason, I remembered hakeem having decent numbers in the playoffs but never remembered him performing very well until the championship years...Probably because we were always knocked out of the first round, I kinda forgot how great he actually was.

I was trying to play the devil's advocate and wasn't doing a good job of it. Before this thread started, I felt that Hakeem probably doesn't belong in the Wilt and Russell class. But now, the more and more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he probably does. I said probably because I've only seen bits and pieces of Russell and Wilt. Most of my argument was based on readings of how legendary Russell and Wilt were.

 

Does anybody out there think that Dream wouldn't have more rings if he had Magic bringing the ball up the floor? Hell, when Kareem got injured in the Chamionship, Magic filled in at center and scored like 42. I really doubt that any other center could have gone through the Lakers in '86 surrounded by Palph, Wig, Bobby Joe, Black Magic, Rodney Mac, Allen Leavell, Craig Ehlo, Granville Waiters, et al. Dream is #1. Period. Wilt may have averaged 50 and 30, but so what? He only one one ring. Or was it two? Doesn't matter. With the exception of Russell, NONE of those guy was a defensive presence like Dream, and Russel was like 6'9'' 220. So let's get serious. For my money I waould want the Dream on my team over any of those guys.

 

But the big difference in your posts and HP's post is that your post sucked and his actually made sense...

 

Hey chenzhen, did you read in your books that wilt use to slam dunk his free throws before they outlawed it, or got his free throw percentage, or how many points he scored that were not dunks? That's why russell did such a good job against him is because he challenged his offensive skills. Kinda reminds you of shaq huh? Hakeem is a victum of a foreign player playing an american game. Is that why it took so long for him to make the dream team? Let's face it, Russel wilt, and kareem are all great players but are they all great well rounded players in all fazes of the game, defense, offense, rebounds, blocks, passing, steals, inside and outside game on both sides of the ball, running full court and having strong enough shoulders to carrry their team for 14 out of 16 years they were with the same team!!! I can only think of one person who did and in an era that scoring , atheleticism, and just pure talent was at its best than in any era before him. NOUGH SAID


Oh, how many times have you seen wilt russell, and kareem play?
there's not a book about Hakeem because he is still playing, but i bet when you read it it will tell you about a soccer playing african who came to houston and turned the city upside down for 19 years.

 

yeah yeah yeah....hakeem deserves to be outside

that circle..cause all remember of hakeem was that

he likes to talk a lot of trash about the rockets and the

organization.....gosh i hope he retire's...

 

That may have been one game, but on average, didn't Seattle play Hakeem better than any team out there. I don't remember him racking up points like that on them regularly.

I see Seattle as the one team that could exploit a weakness in Hakeem. I still believe what I said before about him being the most dominate single player, but I think that this is the BIGGEST reason that Hakeem is several notches from the top on the "Greatest of All Time" chart. Hakeem couldn't play a conventional offense. His passing skills/defensive recognitions weren't good enough to do that effectively. Seattle played the passing lanes and could shut his post passing (kick-outs) down completely. Basically he was forced to take terrible shots, or turn over the ball when he was the focal point of the offensive play.

 

Don't forget that Russell had 11 rings (helped his team) and
he was able to "contain" Wilt's teams(Phil/LA). I think that's worth
something.

Imagine someone today that would be able to shutdown Shaq?
Not score a lot, just contain Shaq...hold him to like 15 or 20 points
everytime he played him.

On a good note, in the next few years Hakeem's legacy will grow.

There's something about legend of lore that creates awe.
Similar to Wilts legendary status. It's almost surreal.

 

How did mine suck over HP's? I said pretty much the same thing...only I didn't use all of Hakeem's numbers. The points were all the same.

 

SRF,

Sorry, I wouldn't have posted most of mine had I seen yours, but I was appending to it for over a 1/2 hour, posted, then I read yours. Made me feel good that others understood.

Doctor Robert,

Look up all the scores for the Seattle games. Can anyone help me out here, instead of saying..."well that was just one game." Geez guys, it is annoying hearing this unless you show some game results. Plus, Kareem was sooo shut down over and over in playoffs, like he didn't really care to win. You cannot make an argument about Kareem, when all you're doing is saying, "Well, hp, you've only shown me one Seattle game...but I'm going to ignore the fact that Russell had Wilt's number for years, and Kareem couldn't beat a watered-down league."

Listen to yourselves.

Show some playoff results. Hakeem doesn't score 27ppg for 140 playoffs and get shutdown by Seattle.

I remember it soooo differently than you. Our 3 pt shooters got shutdown, not Hakeem. Hakeem so schooled Seattled lame ass centers that they had to triple team him. Please tell me what weakness in Hakeem you are expose...

<b>when you TRIPLE TEAM him</b>

Seattle was the only team that could successfully triple team Hakeem, and the could draw him out of his defense by playing 3pt shooting centers. That has NOTHING to do with exposing weaknesses....

man, this thread is pissing me off, big time. I cannot believe how many people (even BrianKagy) think Kareem deserves to be in the top tier centers.

pissed, this makes me.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

I know, I know,,,you were accepting the premise as stated. I just strongly believe Jabbar needs to be kicked out! I was more egging on that final response of yours.

yesh!!!

I knew you'd say it just like I wanted to hear it.

thx, BK is da man!

 

DR,

That's the thing that used to drive me crazy. It's was like Akeem (80's)
would "athlete them to death." He would put up 42 points, 18 rebounds,
and 4 blocks shots, and then lose the game. His game during the eighties
was very basic: Jump higher, faster, be active...he'd win some games on pure
athletic ability, rather than keen knowledge of the game. Then, the Lakers,
Spurs, Celtics, 76ers, Pistons would come play us and tear us apart by playing
like a team. Sure, Akeem would get 35-40 points. But the other team would
still win. Arrgh!!!

The eighties was a frustrating time for me as a teenager watching
the Rockets get knocked out of the play-offs all the time. It was like
the moment Akeem got the ball in the post, it would never come out.
That's why Akeem got a bad name during the late 80's (selfish player).
He DID NOT make his teammates better during that time.

I think this is the biggest knock on Hakeem game. He depended
on pure athletic ability rather than use it to his advantage to make
his teammate better. Don't forget that in 93-94 season we had a very
good season (defense and chemistry). But we did sneak up on them.
We barely won each series. In 1994-95, we started losing big time
mid-season.

No consistency; even with Hakeem. We win against a good team,
and then lose the next game against a bad team. We were not
a good team. We were "Hakeem and a bunch of players."
We were never THE ROCKETS (A TEAM!). When, the Lakers came
to town it was the LAKERS are coming! Not, here comes Abdul-Jabbar.
When the Celtics came to down it was here comes the Celtics,
not here comes Bird.

We would limp into the play-offs and play on pure heart/emotion.
All set on trying to shut Charles Barkley's mouth once and for all. And
this was Hakeem's 10th/11th season (peak of his career).

We were never able to establish a real TEAM that could be held together
for any period of time.

So, all this talk about Bill Russell being sub-par compared to Hakeem...
We forget that Bill "knew the game!" He would rather make the perfect
pass, than score 40. He knew how to win. He knew EVERY OPPONENTS
weaknesses!!!! He studied the game. Learned every trick play. Read
defenses. There were a lot of intangibles to his game that can't be written
on a stat board.

On sheer athletic ability, Hakeem takes the prize. But on defense,
knowledge of the game, passing, mind games, team play, and winning.
Russell takes the cake!

***Once Yao Ming enters the NBA, you'll see what you've been missing.***

Yao, might even sacrifice his game to make his teammates better (he could
get 20 points if he wanted to). And pleas don't say, "Yeah, that's because he
has a good supporting cast." WRONG! That's just the way Yao is. He'd still
make his teammates better even if they were bad.

 

For those of you who try say discredit Bill Russell's legacy by saying he won those 11 championships because he was blessed with a gifted team, look Russell's entire career year by year:

NBA Champs:
1956-57 Boston Celtics 4-3 St. Louis Hawks
1957-58 St. Louis Hawks 4-2 Boston Celtics
1958-59 Boston Celtics 4-0 Minneapolis Lakers
1959-60 Boston Celtics 4-3 St. Louis Hawks
1960-61 Boston Celtics 4-1 St. Louis Hawks
1961-62 Boston Celtics 4-3 Los Angeles Lakers
1962-63 Boston Celtics 4-2 Los Angeles Lakers
1963-64 Boston Celtics 4-1 San Francisco Warriors
1964-65 Boston Celtics 4-1 Los Angeles Lakers
1965-66 Boston Celtics 4-3 Los Angeles Lakers
1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers 4-2 San Francisco Warriors
1967-68 Boston Celtics 4-2 Los Angeles Lakers
1968-69 Boston Celtics 4-3 Los Angeles Lakers

He joined the Celtics 1956 and led them to their first championship ever as a rookie. After he won his last ring and left in 1969, the Celtics stopped winning the championship, in fact they didn't get into the finals again till 5 years after he left. Coincidence? I think not...

 

I forgot to mention this earlier. When I asked ealier how many years he's head and shoulders above everyone else, I'm basically saying how many MVP type seasons did Hakeem have? One or two maybe.

How many MVP's did Russell and Wilt each won? Five. They would have won alot more if they both play on different eras.

Even though I understand why you 'homies' would not hesitate to put Hakeem in the Wilt/Russell class, I'm still very skeptical because I've never seem them play on a regular basis, just like many of you have not.

 

Notice how many times he beat Wilt. If it were all Russell, then you should take Wilt out of that list of top tier centers, because it would mean Russell dominated Wilt. Well, did Russell dominate Wilt or did the Celtics dominate Wilt??

first off, Russell missed a lot of games his rookie year, and Heinsohn won ROY honors that year. I'm not so sure you can just hand Russell that title.

Check it out: Cousy was MVP and 1st Team All-NBA, and Sharman was First Team and Heinsohn was ROY, and Russell missed around 30 games.

Bob Cousy was 1st Team All-NBA from 1952-61. It is just not right to say Russell made him a great player.

Tommy Heinsohn scored 37 pts in the 7th game of the Finals that year. Led them in scoring 1960-62.

Bill Sharman was 1st Team All-NBA from 1956-59.

Sam Jones and KC Jones joined the Celtics in 1959 to help win back the title, as Cousy and Sharman were getting older. Sam Jones led the Celtics in scoring 3 times, and retired the same year as Russell.

And now Havlichek:

Was 4 time 1st Team All NBA <b>after</b> Russell left, and won a championship over Kareem and was named Finals MVP. Was on 7 of Russell's title teams and scored 22ppg in 170 playoff games. Considered the best 6th man to ever play the game.

When you have Havlichek leading your team in scoring as a 6th man, you are loaded!!!

 

My question is that if they recored all the games back then (which i am not sure if they did or not) why dosent someone go back and look at the tape to see how many blocks russell had