I agree with HeyPee, especially about the part of the 70's sucking. I'm a strong believer in the NBA Live series. And according to Live, the 70's sucked. 70's All-Stars cannot compete with 80's or 90's All-Stars. Even on the computer version which you can download 3 Allstar teams per decade, each 70's team is much worse than their respective counterparts.
Nah. Jordan was anointed without too much hemming and hawing. Same goes for Bird and Magic before him. No way, no how was Hakeem better defensively than Chamberlain. Sad to say, but If they kept blocked shot records back then, Olajuwon would not have the record. Ultimately it is very difficult to compare eras. Olajuwon will cerainly go down as among the best centers of the late 80's - early nineties, and an aging Kareem and a young Shaq are the only centers to consistently play near his level during that era.
I wouldn't exactly consider having Ralph Sampson's 20 ppg, 11 boards and 2 blocks at PF for 3 years not having any help. I don't know how it's possible to rank Wilt as an all-time great and not recognize Russell as an opposing (neutralizing) force. (OK hp- I guess you'll bring out your comparison numbers again and this time I will take a deeper look at them ).
I think he's talking career totals. Hakeem needs 21 more rebounds to pass Wes Unseld for 10th, to make him Top 10 in all 4 stats. And he is indeed the only one, by a long shot. Russell is certainly top 10 in steals and blocks, had they recorded them, but not points. not close. Robinson and Bird aren't even in the top 10 in career points, much less steals.
My problem with Russell is he had very little offensive skills...in my opinion, it's the offensive skills that really make an athlete a "basketball player." Bill Russell seemed like an incredible athlete, who hustled like a mofo on defense and hustled to get rebounds. But damn, when you look at all the out of this world offensive moves Hakeem could develop on the fly, it's hard to say this guy who could rebound and play defense very well is a better basketball player. Especially when you consider that Hakeem is arguably the best defensive player as it is due to his numbers in both blocks AND steals. The only thing Russell has going for him - that a lot of people put WAY too much stock in - is the number of championships he won, but that should only be a small factor in deciding who the better player is. When you start talking about who won more championships there's just too many external factors that come into play like teammates, the state of the league at the time, etc. Just compare the players. Offense: Please. Hakeem is the most creative offensive big man ever to play the game. Russell was an offensive role player, who got points off of putbacks. Defense: I say it's a wash, with maybe a small edge to Russell. Rebounding: I'll give the edge to Russell. But obviously his 29 rebound per game averages wouldn't translate to that same amount in today's NBA game. That was a different time. Hakeem was a strong rebounder. Passing: Give the edge to Russell. Wilt, Kareem, and Hakeem is a tough one. With these three guys all-around basketball ability it makes it impossible to compare them without having seen them play each other during the same era. I think the top three are Kareem, Wilt, and Hakeem...in no particular order. Those two guys, I can't argue about, but I'll maintain 'til the day I die that Bill Russell was not a better basketball player than Hakeem Olajuwon.
Would Wilt also be among the top ten in steals? What was the average height in the league when Wilt played? What was the average vertical leap? Was getting your shot blocked seen as such a horrible thing as it is today? You may be right that Wilt is a better defensive player, but you can't say that beyond a shadow of a doubt...there's no way.
Saying Hakeem is better than Russell is like saying Barry Bond is better than Babe Ruth, or Carl Lewis is better than Jesse Owens, or Bill Gates is richer than Rockerfeller. Of course he is. But you have to factor in the "inflation" thing. Athletes are getting better and better because of the advancement of technology and medical science, and the general increase of pro sports' social status. A lot of times people would ask who would win if Hakeem played against Wilt. To answer that question fairly as it is intended, you have to ask one more question: What would Wilt be like if he got the same training facilities, personnel, the same medical care, the same coaching, etc.? Or flip it over: How would Hakeem develop if he was playing in Wilt's era?
who cares if the 1990's is the best defensive era ever, or the 1970's is the worst. You cannot look at it like that, you have to look at the level of dominance by that particular player relative to the era they played in... Remember, players have no control over the era they play in. What makes you think Bill Russell won't dominate as much as Hakeem if he was playing in the 80's or 90's?
Dr of Dunk, I hate to disagree with you, but it's time to put that puppy to bed. Dream blocked Kareem's skyhook during game 2 of the '86 playoff series. Dream had 22pts,13 boards and 6 blocks. One of the rejections was the famous block of Kareem's skyhook. I was going to reply to HP's "Dream in '86 Laker Series" thread (or whatever it was called, sorry HP) and was doing some research in the Houston Chronicle Archives for a post showing stats, etc. I found that they had the game articles but not the stat lines, for some stupid reason. Anyway, there is a ton of stuff in there if you look (it's tedious, the way it's set up). Ralph was one assist short of a triple double and played 47 minutes. That team was BAD ASS. You only have to be a subscriber (which my Mom is, ) to access the archives. My dear, sweet wife accidentally deleted the file my research was in and I blew it off in disgust.
ChenZhen, The point is that Kareem did not dominate the 70s. Where are the rings!!! It was a weak era, and one in which he didn't dominate anymore than Alex English dominated the '80s as the highest scoring player in that decade. Also, you cannot compare sports. The NBA was a fledgling league compared to the NFL, track, and MLB. MLB is largely timeless in how it is played, and certainly track is. The NBA isn't that way. Double teams were not really used as much in the 70s. Bird and Magic forced a reinvention of the game, such that stars like Hakeem faced more exotic defenses than any of those older guys. So, yes, he absolutely would have dominated the 60s or any era, more than he dominated the late 80s and 90s. The other point is that some of us just don't do the era argument, because that has a tendency to favor rings and forget that the talent pool just didn't match up. Some of us just like to measure who recreated their position. Hakeem took the center position to another level.
Steals became an official stat the same year blocks did (1974?). I haven't seen enough of Wilt to say "beyond a shadow of a doubt," but it is certainly fair to call it a draw, and give Wilt a big advantage on points and rebounds.
From what I remember, Olajuwon at the time he did it, was the only one to ever block Kareem's Sky Hook. I'll admit, I was a lot younger then, so I can't say for sure...but I remember it was the talk of the city. As for defense, well, I consider Hakeem the greatest defensive player ever, not just center. All time blocks leader, the ability to change so many shots (how many layup were air balls or just bricks!), the steals, the rebounding. I mean the guy was All-defensive year after year. Mutombo was nothing compared to Hakeem. No one was during his era. Not even David Robinson. And for all those people who think scoring a 100 pts is amazing, David Robinson scored 70+ in a game (his last game of the season) the year he won the MVP. I think the Western Conference Finals is a testiment to Hakeems greatness. Can you believe there was a time when people considered Robinson a better center then Hakeem?
Clyde never slowed Jordan. Remember Portland and Chicago in the finals? Cylde was that great a defensive player. Maxwell wouldn't have slowed Jordan. He couldnt even slow John Starks in the 1994 Finals. If Jordan was around, I dont think the Rockets win in 1994. However, with Clyde on board, I think they could have taken the Jordan led Bulls in 1995.
During the Championship years, the entire Rockets transition from offense to defense was predicated on having three-point shooters able to retreat quickly and Dream ALWAYS beating the other team's front court down court. I don't see any other center in history capable of carrying a team defensively and offensively to the extent he did. Maybe Wilt's better, but if Dream played in Wilt's era I think his numbers would be just as gaudy and incomprehensible. If Dream played for the Celtics, they win just as many if not more. Same for Jabbar's teams. Dream's no worse than #2.
I understand your point, but my question to you is, what makes you think Bill Russell (or Kareem) won't dominate as much as Hakeem if he's playing primarily in the 80's and 90's? Hakeem coming out of college, he didn't have all of the nifty moves we were used to seeing, he was so raw...he developed all of his great offensive moves partly to counter the defense used on him....If he played in the 60's or 70's, I believe there's a good possibilty he would have never developed these offensive moves we are used to see from him because of the defense played in that era... All sports nowadays, including track and baseball, players are now A LOT stronger, faster, and more athletic than players from previous generations...
maxwell clearly had an impact defensively on jordan. no doubt about it even if it's impossible to stop him he was speedbump. meanwhile the bulls had nothing to stop hakeem even remotely and it showed in the head-to-head season matchups. the worst argument ever is what if jordan never retired. i hate it with a passion. with the same logic i guess the bulls are lucky we couldn't beat the sonics or they wouldn't have any rings? hmm, doesn't work like that, you can't just plug jordan into a season and say hey here's a chamionship. anyways i agree the 95 rocks could have taken jordan only too bad he couldn't get his team to the finals. he was playing.
