Thats absolutely not true about 5'10" guys. #1 Russell was only 6'9" so his height was not a factor. Both Wilt and Kareem played with guys like Elvin Hayes, Bob Lanier, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld (may be wrong on this), Walt Bellamy, and Bob Pettit (allo of these guys are in the hall of fame). So while there were less teams back then, they played against other Hall of Fame more frequently than Hakeem did (Robinson, Ewing). Im not going to get into tennis or football because who is better has nothing to do with what ive been saying, because that is subjective, whether its basketball, tennis or chess. Its about who accomplished more in their career. Thats the only objective comparison there is cause its all based on fact.
If Hakeem and Jordan dont win one signle title during their tenure, then despite their abilities, they would not be as highly rated in history as they are. And yes, if Glen Rice and another player have the same stats throughout their careers, with the only difference being, Glen has a ring and the other one doesnt, then in my opinion, Glen should be remembered as having the slighter edge because of that. If you think rings arent the tie breaker when everything else is considered equal, you are just not being honest with yourself. =)
Yawn... So Hakeem doesn't retire and is on the Raptors and they win the title. Hakeem averages 2 min a game. 20 years from now that places him closer to Jordan or whoever?
Is Wilts second title discredited because his stats werent nearly what they were earlier in his career? :yawn:
This thread is so long I don't even think I ranked them... Here we go: Wilt Kareem Hakeem Russell Shaq Hakeem - Russell very close, Hakeem slightly better due to great "O". Shaq lower because his competition is lower and he is very one dimensional. I don't think Shaq's "D" is as good. When Shaq faced Hakeem early on, Hakeem was dominant. In their primes I would take Hakeem.
Dude, I understand that judging them on ability has big problems...didn't you read my post. I said that loud and clear. However, I also said that the way you are looking at it has huge problems as well, but you seem to think that your argument of just going on accomplishments is air tight. I'm here to tell you that's it's not. I used the example of a "controlled experiment" to try and make my point. Objective proof, in this case, can only be considered credible if all the players played in the exact same era, and each player had the exact same team talent level. As we all know, this is not the case. Therefore, the way you're looking at it has just the same amount of problems as trying to compare abilities across eras. However, these are the only two ways to really make the judgement: abilities and accomplishments. That's why I think both should be taken into consideration.
No arguement is air tight ya know. Its been said in this very thread that you cant compare accomplishments for a player from the 60s to accomplishments for a player in the current era because the earlier era wasnt as difficult or didnt have the players that this era has so therefore its not possible to accomplish the things that they did in the past. Thats not sound reasoning. Perfect example: Michael Jordan. He accomplished more in his era at SG than any SG in the 60s. So one player can dominate the current era in the same way that a player dominated the era of the 60s. Jordan dominated his era in way similar to how the other 3 centers dominated their eras. So how can we say that its not possible for Hakeem to dominate his era in the way that Wilt/Russell/Jabbar did because of the style of play or the players that he played against? Jordan did. Hakeem didnt. So comparing all 4 centers accomplisments vs. one another is not unsound. I agree with you there that they both matter. But accomplishments have to carry more weight. If not, how do we separate Malone, Barkely and Robinson from Hakeem? No one can aruge that Malone did not have the scoring and rebounding ability that Hakeem did if not more so. The way you separate them is by looking at what they accomplished as a WHOLE. Accomplishments are what separate good players from being great players. And thats my argument in a nutshell.
I think for once we can agree on something and thats is on what you just posted. Ill concede on this one. A viable arguement can be made for Hakeem being ahead of Russell. I just think its hard to justify him being ahead of the other 2. I think if Shaq keeps piling up championships and MVPs, and with the combination of his physical skills offensively, hell continue to gain around on the others and might pass a couple of him. I think we can ALL agree that Shaqs D doesnt come close to comparing with the other 3.
Actually Hakeem's D is better than Kareem's. Kareem would have been better if he hustled down court, he was good when he finally got there...
Difference in our views: Subjective view (One person): "My dad is the greatest basketball player in the whole world, I've never seen anybody play better" Objective view (Everybody else): "No your daddy SUCKS, quit being idiotic" Which argument is better? Hmmm tough one...I guess both are right since you both feel that way....
No the objective viewers are making a factual conclusion based on obsevation and logic, that's not feelings. They are correct - your daddy sucks...
Yeah, but its your feeling based on observations and logic... Subjective, its your views based purely on opinion... Die thread, DIE!!!
I disagree. I did say that the big 2 were dominant. But they were dominant over a weak group. Most of the other guys that you named came along a little later and still benefitted from playing against those 5'10"ers. For example, I'd dominate versus middle schoolers while those high school JVers would look damn good too. And I understand why you didn't respond to the tennis and football references...........perhaps it would have proven my point.
I must applaud you for a very nice post. Of course I disagree with you on a few small points, but that's really irrelevant. You've shown more knowledge of the old guys than most, and given a fair comparison.
