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quack science gets picked up by major news outlets

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewYorker, Sep 12, 2007.

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NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Sep10/0,4670,BurningSeawater,00.html

it's all over the place, and it's pathetic. Anyone who got a C in physics or chemistry should be able to debunk this one.

Radio Frequencies Help Burn Salt Water
Monday, September 10, 2007

ADVERTISEMENT
ERIE, Pa. —

An Erie cancer researcher has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by one chemist as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century.

John Kanzius happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.

The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, has held demonstrations at his State College lab to confirm his own observations.

The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.

The discovery is "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years," Roy said.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Roy said. "Seeing it burn gives me the chills."

Roy will meet this week with officials from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense to try to obtain research funding.

The scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen _ which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit _ would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Roy said. "The potential is huge."

___

Information from: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, http://www.post-gazette.com

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

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#1 NewYorker, Sep 12, 2007

OldManBernie Old Fogey

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I'm not sure it's quack... it's being discusses in the hangout.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=134472

#2 OldManBernie, Sep 12, 2007
DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JjSXBEHuN-c"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JjSXBEHuN-c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>[/QUOTE]

But, I am sure you know more than those engineers in the story.

#3 DaDakota, Sep 12, 2007
Last edited: Sep 12, 2007
NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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DaDakota said:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JjSXBEHuN-c"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JjSXBEHuN-c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
Click to expand...

But, I am sure you know more than those engineers in the story.[/QUOTE]

Apparently those engineers are quite dumb if they think this thing can actually produce more energy than it uses.

Might help if they spoke to any chemist or physicist - or any high school science teacher.

anyway, if you want more info, you can look into the first law of thermodynamics or the law of conservation of energy.

#4 NewYorker, Sep 12, 2007
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NewYorker said:

Apparently those engineers are quite dumb if they think this thing can actually produce more energy than it uses.

Might help if they spoke to any chemist or physicist - or any high school science teacher.

anyway, if you want more info, you can look into the first law of thermodynamics or the law of conservation of energy.
Click to expand...

It's been a while since I took a physics class, but in this case the energy being released isn't produced by the "radio frequency generator." It's released from the water molecules.

Maybe it is quack science, I don't know. But I don't get how conservation of energy debunks it.

#5 durvasa, Sep 12, 2007
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NewYorker said:

Apparently those engineers are quite dumb if they think this thing can actually produce more energy than it uses.

Might help if they spoke to any chemist or physicist - or any high school science teacher.

anyway, if you want more info, you can look into the first law of thermodynamics or the law of conservation of energy.
Click to expand...

What exactly are you trying to suggest? Did they suggest it is some kind of miracle energy making machine? If we can burn oil for fuel, why is it completely impossible to use another substance?

#6 Major, Sep 12, 2007
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LOL
the dogma ofthe religion of science has been challenged
now
they faithful must strike down the infidales

Seriously thought
I say let's see how it plays out
This computer you working on probably breaks a few laws of physics
or . .. what were thought to be laws of physics in the 1700s

Rocket River

#7 Rocket River, Sep 12, 2007

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durvasa said:

It's been a while since I took a physics class, but in this case the energy being released isn't produced by the "radio frequency generator." It's released from the water molecules.

Maybe it is quack science, I don't know. But I don't get how conservation of energy debunks it.
Click to expand...

You have to account for the energy used to produce the radio waves. Then, the radio waves themselves lose energy during transmission to the water. So, before you even start evolving the hydrogen gas out of the water via the remaining radio wave energy, you've already wasted energy.

#8 Sacudido, Sep 12, 2007
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Rocket River said:

LOL
the dogma ofthe religion of science has been challenged
now
they faithful must strike down the infidales

Seriously thought
I say let's see how it plays out
This computer you working on probably breaks a few laws of physics
or . .. what were thought to be laws of physics in the 1700s

Rocket River
Click to expand...

Which law of physics the computer breaks? Computers are actually the product of laws of physics.

#9 pirc1, Sep 12, 2007
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pirc1 said:

Which law of physics the computer breaks? Computers are actually the product of laws of physics.
Click to expand...

pfft... my laptop runs on an advanced dark matter diffuser applying reverse black hole anti-gravity mechanics.

#10 SWTsig, Sep 12, 2007
Rocket River Member

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pirc1 said:

Which law of physics the computer breaks? Computers are actually the product of laws of physics.
Click to expand...

Sorry
I meant the Laws of Physics as folx beleived in the 1700s
The Laws of Physics EVOLVE . . .the change and refine

If this is such a moment were they need to be revised
I say let it play out . . . don't just dismiss it

Rocket River

#11 Rocket River, Sep 12, 2007
DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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It is more energy transference. I am sure the machine that generates the radio waves is using a ton of energy.

But, it may be a situation that there are some applications for, and once researched it may become much more efficient.

But, it is better to laugh about it than to study it, right NYer?

DD

#12 DaDakota, Sep 12, 2007
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Great, now we can just burn the oceans to power our SUVs!
This is gonna be way more kick-ass than oil.

#13 thadeus, Sep 12, 2007

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NewYorker said:

Apparently those engineers are quite dumb if they think this thing can actually produce more energy than it uses.

Might help if they spoke to any chemist or physicist - or any high school science teacher.

anyway, if you want more info, you can look into the first law of thermodynamics or the law of conservation of energy.
Click to expand...

But what if it is true? What if they can do it? Isn't it worth more time to let them see if it's possible? Shouldn't more engineers be devoting their time to this study? Why condemn them right away. The results could be of great benefit to mankind if they materialize. Think of the wonderful things that could happen should this be true. Sadly, it seems you are just blinded by your hatred of engineers and can't see that we must succeed.

#14 rimrocker, Sep 12, 2007
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DaDakota said:

It is more energy transference. I am sure the machine that generates the radio waves is using a ton of energy.

But, it may be a situation that there are some applications for, and once researched it may become much more efficient.

But, it is better to laugh about it than to study it, right NYer?

DD
Click to expand...

There's nothing to study. Here's what you are doing:

Radio Waves + H20 ----------> Heat + H20.

The water is changed back to water, so it can not be the source of any energy.

So where does the heat energy come from? Since energy can not be created or destroyed, and this is not a nuclear process - that only other source is the radio waves.

No matter how efficient you make it, you will never be able to create more heat then the energy inputted in radio waves. This is by physical law.

No energy source does this. Oil works because you are releasing the energy stored in chemical bonds in hydrocarbons and releasing it as heat energy with a lower energy molecule (C02). Solar is taking the energy that's emitted from the sun, as is wind. All energy sources don't create energy, they simply take what's already there (solar, wind, hydro, planetary motion) or release it by a chemical or physics reaction (fossil fuels, nuclear, etc).

In the end, there is no net loss or creation of energy - ever. NOw come a guy who claims he can create energy by burning water back into water?

Please. This is so obvious that it's not even worth debating.

#15 NewYorker, Sep 12, 2007
B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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Rocket River said:

LOL
the dogma ofthe religion of science has been challenged
now
they faithful must strike down the infidales
Click to expand...

I know that's a popular cliche, but NewYorker has shown no evidence that he is a scientist. I don't see where the cliche applies here.

See my comments in the Hangout thread, if you're interested.

There's no dogma being attacked here. As the Penn. guy says it, it's just possibly interesting in the field of water science. little more. And the great thing about "the religion of science" is that the "dogma" can be changed once you go through the scientific method. Hopefully this water fire stuff goes to peer review and publication. If a few labs duplicate it, and there's new science in here, then it will be accepted. Pretty simple.

Does the Catholic church work like that? Oh, right, they just forgave Galileo a few years ago. Hmm...

#16 B-Bob, Sep 12, 2007
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B-Bob said:

I know that's a popular cliche, but NewYorker has shown no evidence that he is a scientist. I don't see where the cliche applies here.

See my comments in the Hangout thread, if you're interested.

There's no dogma being attacked here. As the Penn. guy says it, it's just possibly interesting in the field of water science. little more. And the great thing about "the religion of science" is that the "dogma" can be changed once you go through the scientific method. Hopefully this water fire stuff goes to peer review and publication. If a few labs duplicate it, and there's new science in here, then it will be accepted. Pretty simple.

Does the Catholic church work like that? Oh, right, they just forgave Galileo a few years ago. Hmm...
Click to expand...

just messing with the sci folx

Rocket River

#17 Rocket River, Sep 12, 2007
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Water Technology Online has picked up the story...
_____

‘Burning’ saltwater studied as fuel source

Rustum Roy, Ph.D., a chemist at the university and a founding member of its Materials Research Institute, is an expert in water structure.

He tested John Kanzius’ finding, that saltwater will “burn” as long as it is exposed to radio frequencies, and found it to hold true, reported the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on September 9.

Roy said the saltwater does not burn, per se, but as it is exposed to the radio frequency, the bond that holds together its key constituents — such as sodium, chlorine, hydrogen and oxygen — weakens. As this happens, hydrogen is released, and once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the radio frequency field.

The flame’s temperature was measured at 3,000 F, and is considered an enormous energy output, the article said.

http://www.watertechonline.com/news.asp?N_ID=68148

#18 KingCheetah, Sep 12, 2007

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NewYorker said:

There's nothing to study. Here's what you are doing:

Radio Waves + H20 ----------> Heat + H20.

The water is changed back to water, so it can not be the source of any energy.

So where does the heat energy come from? Since energy can not be created or destroyed, and this is not a nuclear process - that only other source is the radio waves.

No matter how efficient you make it, you will never be able to create more heat then the energy inputted in radio waves. This is by physical law.

No energy source does this. Oil works because you are releasing the energy stored in chemical bonds in hydrocarbons and releasing it as heat energy with a lower energy molecule (C02). Solar is taking the energy that's emitted from the sun, as is wind. All energy sources don't create energy, they simply take what's already there (solar, wind, hydro, planetary motion) or release it by a chemical or physics reaction (fossil fuels, nuclear, etc).

In the end, there is no net loss or creation of energy - ever. NOw come a guy who claims he can create energy by burning water back into water?

Please. This is so obvious that it's not even worth debating.
Click to expand...

Bingo! You don't need to be a scientist to realize this. This is college freshman chemistry. It is truely pathetic for the news outlets to pick up this story. Besides I don't even believe for a second that radio frequency electromagnetic waves can break water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen.

#19 jn7461, Sep 12, 2007
NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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I bet it will take less than 48 hours for the scientific community to dismiss this. This is going to be more silly than cold fusion...hopefully it won't fool too many people. Certainly not any scientists.

#20 NewYorker, Sep 12, 2007

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