I know what the word ostentatious means, but I'm not quite sure of your use of the word. Do you believe that praying in the manner proscribed by your religion is being pretentious? So, I'm assuming then that if these "bearded men" with "asses in the air" assumed a position more akin to your sensibilities, you would not have a problem. Maybe on their knees?
Where did he suggest or even imply that you should convert to Islam? He told you to read some of texts since you obviously have a problem with them. You want to understand why Islamist terrorists act the way they do. Why don't you read the text and see how less than a percent of a religion misconstrues it? How come you don't have this same curiosity for Christian fundamentalists or Jewish extremists? You don't want to know why some Christians feel the need to issue death threats against abortion doctors? Why they praise for violence on Jerry Springer and his "blasphemous show"? Why some even tried to contaminate very important US aquifers to bring the "Second Coming quicker"? How about Jewish extremist settlers who attack Palestinian families in occupied territory regularly? How about the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, where a Jewish extremist opened fire on praying Muslims inside a mosque? Why is it only Islamic extremism that catches your eye? Christian extremism predates Islam's. Do I even need to mention the Crusades and how the Franks would wade around Jerusalem with blood up to their shins?
I have read the texts he posted, and I appreciate him posting them and making an effort to create more understanding for his understanding of Islam. However, I believe that it's the wrong discussion: He tries to convince people based on what he perceives to be the rules of interpretation of Islam he thinks should apply (and he thinks should supersede everything else, including bill of rights, etc.). I am looking for an explanation and an answer to the question why Islamic intolerance and terror exists and what one can do about it that does not require me to follow his interpretation of Islam. For several reasons: 1) Selfish reason: I don't feel threatened by Christian or Jewish fundamentalists. They are not going to blow up any plane I board, any commuter train I might hop on in London or Madrid, they are not going to hijack cruise ships and kill people on board those ships (e.g., Achille Lauro). 2) More generic reason: Far more atrocities are committed in the name of Islam nowadays than in the name of any other religion. 3) In more detail: While I think that all fundamentalists are idiots (except Rocket fan fundamentalists ) and while I detest the people who commit e.g. child abuse and use the opportunities for this they get out of their position in e.g. the Catholic church, and while I don't agree with some of Israel's settlement policies, I don't really feel that these acts have a root cause in the respective religion. With regard to the abuse cases in the Catholic church, I think the problem lies mainly with the celibacy dictate and the structure of the church, but it has nothing to do with what the religion originally teaches. Also, these cases are in my opinion not comparable in terms of order of magnitude with 9/11, Atocha bombings, London bombings, beheadings all over the world, etc. etc. The Jewish settler thing, also, I don't see this as something that stems directly from the religion itself. It's more of a regional power/survival conflict (from both sides in this case). Actually, I think the Christians who issue these death threats (and in some cases act on them) are complete lunatics who are fanatic and while their acts affect less individual people and are more "targeted", they are just as evil as a suicide bomber. I don't know what the above means. Again, this extremist is just as bad as the extremists from the other side. This is terrible. BUT - this reminds me of many TV discussions I have seen between Jewish and Palestinian/Islamic representatives on German TV. Whenever there was a terrible suicide bombing, the Islamic representative would condemn it in passing and would then launch on a diatribe about how Israel really caused the whole thing - basically quickly turning around and pointing fingers. Seems to me you are trying to do the same thing here. See above. This doesn't justify anything in terms of terror nowadays. Your attempts to deflect blame are noted, but they are not useful.
Why it exists? Because intolerance already existed? Intolerance is individually based, so when you phrase a question with "why Islamic intolerance exists", you only display a bigoted position. The likelihood that any of these happen to you is twelve times less than the likelihood that you get eaten by a shark. Do you stay away from the ocean because of this irrational fear? That's because you undoubtedly read biased news media. How often to news corporations report the death threat on an abortion doctor (most of these doctors receive threats weekly)? Now compare that with the South Park fiasco, where a small website that has like 20 active members issues a threat or a warning to the creators of South Park. America does not want to hear about a Christian fundamentalist using violence and intimidation to instill fear in an abortion doctor. All news is biased, because there is a choice between which news to display and which to not display. So then you don't see 9/11 as a regional conflict either? OBL gave his reasoning for the attacks because of 'the injustices against the Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel and the United States'. There are Lebanese Christians and Palestinian Christians. If it was strictly religious, he would have said the injustices of the Lebanese and Palestinian Muslims. And you say they are not comparable because, TBH, you know nothing about them. Do you know what happened at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon? How Christian Phalangists lined up women and children in the streets and executed them? So what does that tell you about these Muslims who do the same? That they are not lunatics and fanatics, but actually average, rational Muslims? The Qur'an is clear when it says no Muslim may kill an innocent person. When these type of people kill innocent civilians, do you still think it is religiously motivated, despite being in contradiction to the Qur'an? http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/485802/Jerry-Springer-blasphemous.html Here's a funny quotes:
Then you tell me what the common denominator of 9/11, Madrid, London bombings, beheading of Daniel Pearl, outrage over a cartoon and attempted killing of the cartoonist, killings of two Dutch politicans, etc. etc. is. If it is "individually based", which you try to use as an "out" for Islam, then why do all the above acts in different countries and under different circumstances have exactly one thing in common - and I am not making this up, but it was said so by the perpetrators - they are committed in the name of Islam (and to take revenge for some perceived wrongdoing or offense against Islam/Muslims). "Individually based"? Why do they all have one thing in common then? Random made up stat. I neither stay away from the ocean (except in South Africa) nor do I stay away from airports and train stations. But the fear is not irrational, and you don't need to downplay it. Try to downplay it to the victims and relatives of victims of 9/11, the London bombings and the Madrid bombings. Oh, the infamous "it's not Muslims, it's all the biased news media" excuse. Come on. What the hell - are you seriously trying to say 9/11 is a regional conflict because of whatever hogwash Osama Bin Laden said about this mass murder in the name of Islam? Again the old "let's point fingers in the other direction instead of addressing the big problem" routine. That's what they say. And I see that many people in the Islamic world, including spiritual leaders, supported these acts.
lol You poor soul. Me try to convert you? or anyone? haha All I will say is that you obviously have to know the quran to understant " whythe radical elements within Islam cannot be held in check so they can leave the rest of the world in peace without constantly being outraged, aggressive, intolerant and in some cases terrorist."
Wow...really???? I find it funny that you call my reading comprehension into question while responding to my post and COMPLETELY MISSING this: "If you try to stop them by telling them they cannot would likely involve you claiming some authority you don't actually have." This would absolutely not involve the state banning people from doing so. It involves YOU, as an INDIVIDUAL trying to stop them. And somehow my reading comprehension is called into question...cute. And then you go for the cheap sexual orientation jab. We should probably not debate things of substance with the local 6th grade quarterback. Oh yeah...you are STILL an insufferable ass.
I think this is the truth, except for the part where he made the 6th grade squad. Just leave it (if you want my two cents.) I will say this: I'm easily annoyed by big public displays of anything. I prefer people who are more respectful of those around them. But when I get this feeling, what do I say to myself? I say: "B-Bob, get a life, and let your hair hang down for once. They're just doing what makes them happy, and you should too." Honest truth.
It is very sad that the poster in question has now started two threads dedicated to his disdain of religious people in general and Muslims in specific. The fact of the matter is that the guy is a bigot...oh yeah...and an insufferable ass.
And nowhere do I say that I "as an INDIVIDUAL" want to stop them. Expressing my personal feeling of being uncomfortable != wanting to stop them. I can see how that does not go into your head, given your apparent reading comprehension issues, but it is hilarious that you quote, re-quote, angrily SCREAM in your post, and still display that you have not understood. Oh yes, and rightly so. I can see how it must be frustrating for you to not be able to convince on the merits, so it's fine if you have to repeat the same insult over and over again. No problem. Your level of anger is certainly noteworthy. What happened to turning the other cheek? Share your problems with us...why are you so aggressive? We understand...it's fine.
Why do you think I have to know the Koran for that? So if that is true - if there was no Koran, these radical elements would not exist?
Are you joking? How can I discuss evolution with you in a meaningful way if I don't know what the evolutionary theory is? As for your second question, thank you for asking. I will use it to just make a final statement and exit this horrendous thread. Doesn't your second question beg the question... What possible reason could someone have to rule out a second possibility - that you will read the text and find that terrorism does not receive its direction from the Quran? Therefore its existence has nothing to do with terrorism, unless through corruption or misinterpretation or falsified claims? ATW, look at yourself for one second. You don't know what's in the text. You don't want to read it. You rely on snippets here and there and claims from random places. You form your views based on the media and the news. You have made up your mind, without a fair look at the evidence. Wake the hell up. You have all the characteristics of the modern day "Islamic" terrorist. It saddens me. You have tested my patience to be honest, and I'm not proud of that. In any case, I still extend my hand. If you have any questions or real concerns, I'm all ears. Otherwise, thanks for the discussion.
Sorry, but I haven't read the whole bible either, yet I know that child abuse by Catholic priests is wrong. I don't need to read the whole bible to know that. And you are trying to tell me that I have to read the whole Koran first to understand why the radical elements within Islam cannot be held in check so they can leave the rest of the world in peace without constantly being outraged, aggressive, intolerant and in some cases terrorist? I don't buy that argument. I can make a value judgment on their actions without first reading the whole Koran or bible. What the hell? I have read a lot of nonsense here by several posters, but this really takes the cake. Let me try to think of some characteristics: - is a religious fanatic (-) - is willing to kill people who disagree to enforce his conviction (-) - is willing to die while killing because he thinks he'll get a reward in heaven for this (-) and so on. I mean seriously...what the hell? Now I am the same as an Islamic terrorist? I seriously expect your apology for this one.
Refman, next time I make a joke about Catholics, I want you to remember this thread. We may disagree, but we're never disagreeable. Let's keep it that way.
I've got to agree with Mathloom here, you've got a lot of similarities to those terrorists. You believe Islam is this system that is after taking your freedom away from you, to control the world. Likewise, the terrorusts believe the West is after controlling its people and resources. Appears to me both of you have similar thoughts. If Muslim countries were to take over economically in the future, what role will thoughts like yours play in the reaction to this. The seeds of hate are already in place....the cycle needs to be stopped. Its a global community, we've got to lean to understand our differences and work together to solve our issues. Trying to be like Geert Wilders does not help this cause....
oh, where's a slow-motion cinematically captured, dashing Pocahontas set to the backdrop of a melodramatic symphonic, when you need one.......
That's just crazy. Even those people like rocketsjudoka, FranchiseBlade etc., who are trying to suck up to the Mathlooms of the world, should distance themselves from statements like this. Where is Refman's and Major's outrage about statements like this?
To be honest, I just wanted to provoke a reaction from you, similarly to how you like to play with others strings. It seemed like his comments about you and terrorists got to you. Annoying isn’t it?
You can make judgements, but not value judgements. Your list is fantastic. Let's break it down: - is a religious fanatic: Is a fanatic of an ideology which they believe everyone should conform to and if not, then they are pushing their values on us. Check. - is willing to kill people who disagree to enforce his conviction: this happens because of extremism, check, and because of a lack of knowledge of what lies behind the actions of the opposite side, check. Willingness is a function of the knowledge you base your decision on. - is willing to die while killing because he thinks he'll get a reward in heaven for this: coming to conlusions based on what you "think" is true without feeling a need to study evidence which may conclude the contrary. Check. If you are expecting an apology for me, you will be waiting a long time. Start looking at yourself critically and see if you are using the same logical sequence as terrorists. If they just got you at a younger age and injected you with the extremist story and told you that you don't really need to know what Voltaire said or what Darwin said... Man, you would be a prime candidate. They'd just have to show you videos of Churchill likening Palestinian Arabs to dogs. You'd be all up in here with "I don't need to read about the critical elements of democracy to know that. And you are trying to tell me that I have to read the whole definition of human rights first to understand why the radical elements within Western civilization cannot be held in check so they can leave the rest of the world in peace without constantly trying to force democracy, rights for gays & women, and capitalism?" Scary, isn't it?
