Spoiler That is a big plot hole that irritates me as well. Why was Eva opposing Ocelot? She knew the plan according to Big Boss' speech at the end. It doesn't make sense that she'd put on an act to try to evade Ocelot when she's involved in the plan and knows that the body she's carrying is not really Big Boss, but is really Solidus. Another thing that bugs me is that why couldn't Ocelot come clean to Snake and allow Snake to upload the virus without all the charades? I mean Ocelot controlled SOP after act 3 and therefore the Patriots couldn't control anyone's nanomachines anymore. What could the Patriots have done at that point if Ocelot just told Snake the plan and they both went and uploaded the virus Sunny created? The charades didn't make much sense...
Spoiler I assumed that the Patriots still had a lot of control over the world, even despite Ocelot controlling SOP. I might be remembering wrong, but I suppose if the Patriots suspected that Ocelot and Snake were working together, they might not have been so willing to "stay out of it" so to speak. Don't know if they would technically have had military control to work with, but I suppose they could have screwed up things in the other sectors of the world. I might have to play it again soon to remember some of the specific points regarding this. I've already started to forget some of the smaller details.
Spoiler I'll likely do some more research into it, but now I'm starting to lean toward EVA not actually knowing about Ocelot's scheme after he grafted Liquid's arm onto his (after originally thinking they were working together). It seems like they were both still working for the same goal, but they took divergent paths. EVA went underground to protect the bio-mort and Big Boss' corpse after having Raiden steal it, assuming that Ocelot was lost to Liquids will according to this conversation: Ocelot/Liquid's plan seemed to be so undercover that not even he could let EVA in on it. Spoiler The problem with this is that Liquid didn't actually know that the virus would take down JD - nobody knew except for Naomi (and presumably Sunny, but she didn't understand the greater implications of the code she was working on). From Liquid's perspective, Snake and RAT PT01 were opposing him and trying to stop him from destroying JD and releasing everyone from The Patriots reign. Snake and Co. assumed that Liquid was going to take over the entire system after destroying JD. If Snake and Co. were able to stop Liquid with what they originally thought the virus did, it would result in GW being corrupted and JD still staying alive - ultimately allowing The Patriots to still stay in power and "win" the battle. I'm not sure if I explained that very well. If you want me to expound on anything, or even argue on certain points so that we can both try to clarify the storyline better (I'm certainly not convinced that I understand everything clearly or correctly), I'd be happy to. P.S. It is a royal pain to format all these spoiler tags.
RC Cola and A00man: Spoiler I did a little more research and came upon a painfully obvious and easy explanation as to why EVA was still opposing Liquid Ocelot. When Ocelot grafted Liquid Snake's psyche onto his own, it melded both of their personalities and plans together. The Ocelot portion still wanted to destroy the Patriots and free Big Boss, but the Liquid portion was bent on achieving domination and power. Even though everyone wanted to see the demise of the Patriots, they also didn't want to see Liquid achieve supreme control over the System.
Spoiler Hmm...don't really like that explanation either, but I was more under the impression that Ocelot was still more or less in complete control. I understand that Ocelot had to understand how Liquid would think and act, but I don't think it would really affect his actions. Basically like an actor that worked really hard before taking a role in some movie, play, etc. Of course, I was trying to make it seem as "realistic" as possible. I prefer thinking it was just an excellent performance by Ocelot rather than some strange melding of psyches, or something like that. But perhaps that was the intention, and I guess it would explain some things involving EVA a little better.
Wow, how lame am I? I bought the MG bundle a couple of months ago and I still haven't played this game one time....
I bought the bundle and I think it sucks also. Just get me to the game play already. If I wanted a movie I would have bought a BluRay.
Spoiler Yeah, I keep flip-flopping between trying to figure out which scenario I like better and which one, given the facts we have, would be more plausible. If you remember that Big Boss said, "And Ocelot... In order to fool the System... Used nanomachines and psychotherapy to transplant Liquid's personality onto his own. He used hypnotic suggestion to turn himself into Liquid's mental doppelganger." That would imply something more than Ocelot merely putting on a great acting performance. There are also other parts that don't make a lot of sense if you assume that Ocelot was just acting: Why fight Snake on the top of Outer Haven after the worm was already uploaded? His plan was already foiled and he doesn't have any beef with Snake directly. If Ocelot was just acting, why kill EVA, one of his long-time friends who loved Big Boss and shared the same passionate goal as himself? Why wouldn't EVA just give Liquid the biomort, have him access the system, then use Outer Haven and a stealth nuke to take out JD (basically the same plan, but expedited by EVA's help)? If Ocelot was just acting, why wouldn't EVA just tell Snake that Ocelot is trying to destroy the Patriots, return life to normal, and not take over the world, and that Snake should let him launch the nuke at JD? It would seem that EVA didn't know about Liquid Ocelot's continued motives for destroying the Patriots. For a System as advanced as the Patriots (able to collate data all the way down to a cellular level of a person with nanomachines), it would make sense that to pull off the deception Ocelot would have to become the psychological equivalent of Liquid and wouldn't have been able to tell anyone or else risk exposing his plan to the Patriots. My thoughts on this are still not fully-formed, but that is what I am starting to lean toward.
It's a unique type of game and definitely isn't for everyone. I suspect that many people at first assume that it is an action game equivalent to a Call of Duty 4, but it definitely isn't a straight action game like that. It's kind of a mix between an RPG and action game. Very story driven.
Spoiler I think it is just some of the terms and descriptions in the database that bugs me if this is the true intention. "Revolver Ocelot acts as if Liquid Snake's mind has reawaken and taken over," "Revolver Ocelot played the part of Liquid Ocelot," "Took on Liquid's ambitions under the guise of Liquid Ocelot," "He posed as a Liquid Snake doppelganger in order to hide those intentions from the core AI, JD," etc. Then again, other entries do say things like "his body taken over by Liquid Snake's psyche. The fusion resulted in Liquid Ocelot" and "Eventually, Liquid Snake manages to take over Revolver Ocelot's mind completely, creating Liquid Ocelot." Of course, with all my database entries unlocked, I'm not sure exactly which ones were available prior to the MGS4 ending (when it was assumed that Liquid was taking over Ocelot's body for sure, like in MGS2). I guess the quotes don't really contradict each other. To me, some of the words seem to suggest Ocelot was in control, but that's probably just because I was reading it with that assumption. I guess he could play the part of Liquid Ocelot while also being in danger of losing control and having Liquid's personality take complete control. In either case, I wish it could have been described a lot better. Spoiler His plan was a success from what I understood. As the database puts it "Once he had destroyed JD from the inside, his mission as Liquid Ocelot was over." I guess that still doesn't explain exactly why he'd fight Snake though. Knowing that FOXDIE could kill him, I suppose he could have been pretty unstable. Maybe he wanted to take Snake out so FOXDIE wouldn't take any more lives (not like Snake had much of a life left). Or maybe some other reason (MGS2/MGS3 related?). Not really a good reason I admit, but there were a lot of things I had little explanation for. It would also be strange that this would be the only time that'd he try to kill Snake. Might be remembering wrong, but Snake was pretty vulnerable at other points in the game, and it didn't seem like Ocelot ever tried to finish him off (of course, bad guys rarely do this even when they definitely want them dead). Spoiler Didn't EVA basically kill herself (jumped into the fire), or am I remembering wrong? Or maybe it was FOXDIE? In either case, it didn't seem like Ocelot was directly trying to kill her, although I might be wrong. Spoiler Think I touched on this earlier, although I didn't really like my explanation either. Either she didn't know his plan, or this was a way to keep the Patriots thinking that things weren't getting out of control (continue to let Snake take care of things). Perhaps there's a better explanation. Spoiler I can more or less agree with that as a possible explanation. I just don't quite like the idea of Liquid (or Liquid's personality) possibly jeopardizing Ocelot's mission. I'm OK with this personality being created so that Ocelot could essentially fool people into thinking he was Liquid (or Ocelot's body being controlled by Liquid). The best way to fool them into thinking he was Liquid was to fool himself. But I'm not sure if this meant potentially losing control of his body to Liquid's psyche (unless this control would still keep the mission going as planned). I guess there is really no way of preventing that though. If you're going to think and act like Liquid, then you might end up doing things you'd' rather not do.
Wow all I must say is that this game was simply phenominal. I have been a long time metal gear fan, and this game was just so slick!!
Spoiler Hmm, interesting. So what you're saying is that Liquid Ocelot nor Snake really knew Naomi's intentions. Ocelot (even though he's playing his charades as Liquid Snake) didn't know that the virus would essentially destroy all of the Patriots' systems. He thought the virus Snake had would supposedly just destroy GW and give supreme control back to the Patriots. He was just playing the role of Liquid Snake to fool the Patriots from recognizing him. He was working on his own plan to use GW to genuinely nuke JD and destroy the Patriots control. So per your explanation, his plans were genuine and not just a charade to have Snake load the virus into GW and he wins. Snake on the other hand thought that the virus would destroy GW and then Ocelot couldn't use it to nuke JD out of the skies, which essentially would give Patriots control again. But Snake and Otacon's reason behind this was to not cause a major disaster to the global economy. Keeping the war economy in tact one way or another wouldn't cause a global depression and would keep things in place. So pretty much, Snake and Otacon wanted the Patriots out but they knew the implications behind this, and therefore ultimately decided that the Patriots must survive for the economy to be stable. Naomi on the other hand, had her own master plan for redemption. She knew she was behind a lot of this and wanted to take down the entire Patriots system regardless of the negative effects. Essentially she wanted the same thing as Ocelot, but had her own plan which neither Snake nor Ocelot were aware of. The only one that was aware of it was Sunny, but Sunny didn't know the true intentions either. She was just the designer of the virus. I actually like this explanation for the most part. I still have a few questions with it though. 1. After the virus was uploaded, it seemed like Ocelot knew what was going to happen. Am I wrong in this? Did he know or was he just genuinely surprised that Naomi came on the screen and her explanation for what the virus did was pretty much his goal all along. He realized that even with the virus being uploaded (something he was against the whole time because he thought the virus was strictly designed to destroy GW only), his mission was a success and he could stop his disguise. 2. Why actually have a disguise. What was the purpose of him acting like Liquid Snake? Couldn't he have done everything he did with his actual alias instead of pretending to be someone else? 3. Most importantly, was Ocelot the only one that knew that destroying the Patriots' system would free Big Boss from his cryogenic chamber? Did Eva know about this? If Eva didn't know about this, then everything falls into place I think. Sorry I typed a whole lot out, but I was just thinking out loud and trying to make sense of some stuff I hadn't understood properly. Essentially I like these answers and it makes the story that much more plausible. It's just more authentic to me when I know that the intentions of all the characters were genuine and not one big charade which could have been avoided had they talked to each other. It makes sense!
Spoiler Exactly. From Ocelot's vantage point, Snake and Co. were trying to foil his plan. Ocelot was trying to take down the Patriots, but he didn't know that the virus Snake uploaded basically did the same thing. From his point of view, if Snake and Co. had succeeded in their mission, the Patriots would still be in control and their AIs still intact. Neither side knew that the virus would ultimately cripple JD. Spoiler Close, but not quite. Otacon and Snake's reason for wanting to disable GW and prevent Ocelot from destroying JD wasn't to prevent major disaster to the global economy, it was because they didn't want "Liquid" to have sole control over all of the Patriots AIs. From their point of view, if Liquid succeeded in his plan the Patriots AIs would still exist, but Liquid would be the one controlling them. Stopping Liquid and letting the Partiots' AIs continue was the lesser of two evils. Spoiler Correct. In hindsight, Naomi's intentions and motivations really lend a lot of depth to her dialogue in the game. She continually speaks of her past sins and how she feels responsible for many aspects of the SOP (if you remember, the SOP nanomachines were based off her the nanomachines she used to carry the FOXDIE virus). Spoiler Ocelot didn't know what the virus would actually do, but he was happy with the outcome. If you remember from his fight with Snake on the top of Outer Haven, he basically expresses satisfaction with what the virus did ("Free from FOXDIE... Free from the System... Free from ID control. Our minds free from their prisons. That is the haven I've yearned for.") He didn't know the virus would accomplish what it did, but he was happy with the outcome because it was in line with his ultimate goals. Spoiler He had to go through the lengthy process of "becoming" Liquid Snake because the Patriots knew of Revolver Ocelot's goals. They knew that Ocelot wanted to destroy them. If he kept his appearance as Ocelot, there is no way that the Patriots would have allowed him to set up his umbrella company that owned the 5 largest PMCs. By hiding under the guise of Liquid, he was able to slowly and quietly put his plan into motion without the Patriots keeping such a close eye (or trying to kill him) along the way. Spoiler EVA's knowledge and intentions were a part I was a little hazy on for a while, but I think I have a pretty decent grasp on it now. I'm actually under the impression that EVA did know that destroying JD would free Big Boss (Big Boss basically says as much during his speech with Snake at the end). The key point though, is that I don't think she knew that "Liquid's" intentions were a front to carry out Revolver Ocelot's plan. She makes allusions to "losing" Ocelot after the Shadow Moses incident (when Liquid's arm started "taking over" Ocelot). EVA thought Liquid was only out to gain control of SOP, she didn't know that he was carrying out Ocelot's plan and that he wanted to destroy JD. She basically didn't know that Ocelot still existed; she thought that Liquid had taken over his body and brain. She had no knowledge of his underlying plan. Hope that all helps and I hope I explained everything clearly enough. I'm willing to kick around ideas or dissect/explain other parts if you still have questions.
Your points definitely make a lot of sense and seem to make the game come together as a whole. Spoiler Honestly, when I first beat the game I thought it was among the best games I've ever played. But the more I thought about the story, the more some of these plot holes came back at me and it felt like as if everything was a charade and there was really no danger at any point because everything was staged. It sort of lost it's luster with me because of these so-called plot holes. With this explanation though, it seems like everything was genuine and every characters goals were real. That adds a LOT of depth to all the characters. Now I'm definitely going to go back and play the game again while keeping these ideas in my head to see if I can make sense of the few things I may still be missing. But all in all, this conversation definitely helped me in grasping the story of the game! The one thing that is still a little jarring is Eva's intentions, but from your explanation, it makes sense that she didn't know what Ocelot's plans were. Only Ocelot knew what his plans were. I don't know if Eva knew that it was Solidus' body she was holding on to, or if she really believed it was Big Boss. I think she knew it was Solidus' body she was protecting but as you said, she thought that if Liquid got a hold of the body, he would take control of SOP and she didn't know that it was really Ocelot the whole time. She didn't know that Liquid never really existed, but instead she thought that if Liquid took control of SOP, he could eventually get to the other Patriots' systems and fulfill his plan of domination over the Patriots' systems. Anyways, thanks for the explanation! I definitely have to go and play the game again now with those points in my head. I still have GTAIV to finish though, but I end up having to force myself to play that game. With MGS 1,2,3 & 4 I never had that problem.
Spoiler Yeah, I feel you on the storyline. Once you get things to fall into place and understand it correctly, it really lends a lot of depth to the characters. I feel like it is the type of game that a literary paper could be written about examining each person's motivations and trying to dissect who could really be considered the "hero" of the game. You go through the whole game thinking Ocelot is evil, but then you learn that his end goals were arguably noble. You think Naomi is a double-crossing snitch, but then you learn that she held such massive guilt over the state of the world because it was her technology that ultimately led to it being that way. You assume Snake is the hero throughout all the series, but then you start to learn that along each step of the way he was usually the equivalent of a pawn of the Patriots. You think Big Boss is this wartime hero who opposed Zero and his evil plans of setting up an Illuminati-like organization, but then you learn that Big Boss was elevated to a status that was beyond what occurred in reality so that he could become a symbol to the people - and on top of that, his interpretation of the Boss' will wasn't necessarily that much better than Zero's. Let me clear up a few more things about EVA for you too. It is best if you think about her intentions as being similar to Ocelot's, only that she didn't know Ocelot still "existed" and was continuing to carry out their plan. Her and Ocelot once shared the same goals, but she thought she "lost" Ocelot to Liquid's arm and she had to continue carrying on their goals without him. She did know it was Solidus' body. Raiden helped her and her gang steal Big Boss' body from the Patriots (he originally was in a form that resembled the Solidus biomort). EVA then used parts from Solidus and Liquids body to help reconstruct the body of Big Boss, and then she was able to use the rest of Solidus' remains as a stand-in biomort to replace the Big Boss one. But you are correct, she didn't know about Ocelot's plan, so she didn't want to hand over the biomort to him because (from her point of view) he would just take over the SOP and use it to further his evil plans. I'm also in the same boat as you: I'm about to start up GTA4. After I finish that game and maybe a couple other games, I am going to go back and play through the entire MGS series (I never got a chance to play MGS3 yet). It will be interesting to see the story of each game now with the knowledge of MGS4. I also feel like MGS4 is a game you have to play more than once because of all the twists and turns with the storyline.
Spoiler Well first things first. I didn't know what biomort means and google isn't helping much in explaining it. I'm guessing it means something like a living corpse or the dying of a living organism. Now if Raiden helped Eva steal Big Boss' body from the Patriots, then how was Big Boss awaken from the Patriots' reign at the end of the game? Wouldn't he be with Eva? I thought that Eva had Solidus' body and because he was a perfect clone, Ocelot could use his DNA to access the SOP system. I read something about Eva using parts of Solidus and Liquid to reconstruct the body of Big Boss in the MGS4 Database, but I never quite understood what they meant by that. I'm still not getting it... If Eva used parts of Solidus and Liquid to reconstruct the body of Big Boss, wouldn't she have this "reconstructed biomort" of Big Boss in her possession? Why did she have Solidus and not Big Boss then? This thing seems to be flying over my head... Anyways, after our discussion yesterday about all this, I went back and watched the ending conversation between Snake and Big Boss. Big Boss says that all that had happened, happened to get the location of Zero. Ocelot, Eva, and Naomi's ultimate goal was to get the location of Zero, and the way to do that was by getting rid of the Patriots' system. I looked to see if Big Boss ever said that all 3 of them were working together, and I never noticed him saying that. So with that we can conclude that Eva, Ocelot, and Naomi indeed didn't know each others plans and that the whole game wasn't just a charade put on by them 3. I know we talked about this a lot yesterday, but it was good to see that it does make sense and that there wasn't some dialogue that throws the explanation we discussed out the window.
Spoiler The biomort is the name they give to the Solidus corpse thing in the game. Originally, Big Boss' body looked like that when it was stolen from the Patriots. After Raiden and EVA stole the Big Boss biomort, they were able to use parts from Solidus and Liquid to reconstruct him into a full body. Then they used the rest of Solidus to make the biomort you see in the game. So she had BOTH Big Boss' body (presumably hidden away somewhere) and Solidus in her possession. So if someone wanted to steal the biomort to open up the SOP (like Liquid did), they would be stealing Solidus' body and Big Boss' body would still be safe. And the way he was able to be awaken at the end of the game is that he had nanomachines in his body that were basically keeping him in a coma. The nanomachines were tied to JD, so when JD got destroyed Big Boss' nanomachines shut off and he was released from his coma. I hope I explained that well enough. If not, let me know. Spoiler Yep. They all had basically the same general plan, but none of them were working together or aware of the others' efforts. Naomi and Liquid Ocelot felt their plans were of such immense importance that they couldn't divulge them to anyone, not even their old friend EVA.
Spoiler Ohh ok. That makes sense then. I was wondering how Eva and Raiden stole Big Boss' body and then somehow it gets back with the Patriots. It makes sense now that Eva had both of the bodies the whole time. And I knew that Big Boss' nanomachines were tied to JD. It just slipped my mind. Ahh, it makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation! I really have to play the game again soon to get all these things down. Thanks!
