[Props to Poster] AntiSonic's awesome analysis

Ditton.

come on Tinman, don't you get tired of dominating the GARM with this stuff?

 

How quickly we forget


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE1DB1239F930A25756C0A960958260

Horry and Cassell = Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie

 

Rocketman95,

I generally agree with you, but you appear to overstate your case even if the emotions that underly it are completely valid.

First of all, who says anything about wanting this group to fail? You made that up, and didn't have to do so to make your point. Let me give you an example.

I was flaming McGrady before the trade deadline when Yao was healthy because I wanted to see us truly build around Yao. I thought a trade with the Bucks for Villanueva and Redd would have been awesome. My opinion was rife with frustration about how McGrady fit into our team's offense, the notion that Yao was better without McGrady in the starting lineup, that we needed to make a trade to get us through the Western Conference, that if we fail to make it out of the first round this year that McGrady would have no trade value next season and, in that event, we would have to continuing averaging-out the production of two superstars when they were on the court at the same time.

See, I am a Rockets fan, not a McGrady of Yao only fan like the many on this BBS with "Yao" and "T-Mac" forming part of their monikers. So please quit the drama about a long-time Rockets like Tinman (and others) supposedly "bashing" current players as though it's a bad thing to call George W. Bush a dumbass just because you're an American. Just like we can be patriotic even as we voice our opposition to the current president of the U.S.A., we can be die-hard Rockets fans without wanting to give McGrady more than he's due.

When a former Rocket who's undoubtedly got more knowledge about NBA basketball says something about this team, it's worth listening to. You don't have to get your panties in a wad when one of them says something that's not particularly flattering about the current roster. Say whatever you want, but we could very well be one of the 50 win teams that doesn't make the playoffs or is stuck in a first round matchup against the No. 1 seed. Why is that so damn offensive to you?

As for the name calling with McGrady, I can do with or without it. And to be truthful with you, I see no problem reminding people that T-Mac has yet to save any team he's played for from a first round exit, particularly when some of his supporters seem to think that Jesus will be fetching him beers in Heaven for what T-Mac's done for this team.

You can keep on thinking that I hate T-Mac because I think that he's got to have external motivation in order to be successful - a point that I intended to make when I created my signature. Or you can say that I hate the Rockets because I laugh when I read where people refer to T-Mac as "McLady" (funny, I might add). But you cannot question my loyalty to the team because I don't display the type of "here and now" zeal that seems to possess you.

Here's to seeing the forest through the trees, and future beyond the "here and now".

-P1st, S2nd

 

I disagreed with the trade that sent Horry and Cassell away for Chucklehead.

After that second championship, I was already having visions of the next few we would be winning, while Hakeem was in the last few years of his prime.

I understand why they made the move, I just don't think it ever should have happened. It would have been better to have tried to bring Otis back somehow.

I think that had they not made that trade, a lot of subsequent things would have gone down much differently. Quitten would likely have never been brought here either. Clyde would not have prematurely retired. There could have been a much more smooth and graceful transition into the SF/Cat years, maybe even a pleasant passing of the baton from Hakeem to Yao (assuming of course that we still would have won the ping-pong ball derby that year).

But what's in the past is what's in the past. And these guys are all human beings, and thus none of them are without their flaws. Fans can be fans of individual players (sometimes to a fault, as so vividly displayed by some people), but primarily they are fans of the TEAM, first and foremost.

And as the famous saying goes, 'If you ain't FOR us, yer agin' us.' Meaning, of course, if you don't lace em up and put on a Rockets uni, then you are the ENEMY. Doesn't matter WHO it is.

Players who let their FEELINGS get in the way of fulfilling their contracts with their teams (and by extension, the fans and their cities) by giving their best effort every time, and allow themselves to feel 'hurt' or 'slighted' or 'disrespected' by management which has nevertheless made them unconscionably wealthy, well, no big loss when someone like that leaves.

Someone mentioned Elie. Face it: People who know how things went down don't think Elie is a 'traitor' because he went to work for the Mavs this year, they remember that he was a guy who was a bottom-feeder journeyman who was elevated by this owner and Rudy into being a quasi-celeb-status star, especially in this city, but who jumped ship to San Antonio and was a complete a-hole about it every time we played them. Inside the lines of the basketball court, and when wearing a Rockets uniform, I was a decent Elie fan, but he by no means earned anyone's undying love here. And his local radio and TV work was nothing about which to be enthused.

On to Steve and Cat. Pretty good players, and genuine star potential for a while. But once you realize that, no matter what, you are not EVER going to win a championship with a particular guy as your lead player, then you have to make a change. Thankfully the era of 23-seconds-and-jack-up-an-off-balance-25-footer came to an end.

Of course Les is not blameless in all this - our team was saddled with aging players, past their primes, and the owner was unwilling to pay huge salaries as 'rewards' for past service. Case in point, Hakeem. Hakeem made no secret of the fact that he wanted to play in Toronto from the very first day there was a team there. Many people recall that the situation seemed to be that either the team had to cripple itself for years by ridiculously overpaying Olajuwon to prevent him from leaving to go to Toronto in an offended huff, or else just let him go. And it's not like he ever played a quality minute there. This city adopted him and loved him from the moment he arrived in this town as an awkward kid from Africa, and set college hoops on its ear. And he leaves without a second glance at the end of it.

I honestly don't remember exactly happened with Kenny, other than it being pretty clear that Sam was taking his job anyway, but Barkley's injury was so bad, he was never going to play again anyway. I know they both have beefs, but I don't know the details.

Bottom line, though, just because these guys laced it up for us does not mean that they are forever loyal to this team and this city, and why anyone would expect us as fans to behave as though they should be treated like royalty forever remains a mystery.

(Look at Bullard. There's a guy who gave good years here, was let go, came back again, let go again, and never burned any bridges, and remains beloved here.)

And when guys like Kenny and Charles go out of their way to baselessly disparage this team at every opportunity, there is no such thing as a 'free pass', past heroics or not. In fact, if anything, I think it opens them up for even more criticism, because most people find such obvious disloyalty rather distasteful.

In any case, it wouldn't even be a matter of discussion at all if these two guys were at least CLOSE to being right in their assessments regarding the current Rockets team. But they're not. And not only are they wrong, they are SPECTACULARLY wrong, EGREGIOUSLY wrong. They take positives and speak of them as if they were negatives. To say McGrady does not make the players around him better is not only stupid and wrong, but it is astonishingly wrong - it would be akin to criticizing Kobe for not being a scorer.

These two guys, Kenny and Charles, are fools. And clowns. But not the 'laughing-with-them' kind of clowns, but rather the 'laughing-AT-them' kind of clowns, and the only ones who seem not to be in on the joke is them.

And in regards to some so-called 'fans' who can do nothing but disparage McGrady now, well, if all you are waiting for is for him to win a ring before you will give him some appreciation, then you are the very epitome of why so many people across the country think Houston is a 'bad sports town'.

Is McGrady without flaws? Of course not. But he's good. He's not only good, he's DAMN good, and better today than he was when he first got here. And he's worth supporting.


my $.02

 

To me, this thread highlights one thing:

The ONLY time a diverse group of sports fans who happen to pull for a particular team can be truly, completely happy is when that team wins the title. Winning the title, whether it happens this year or next, will bring all us Rockets fans together on the exact same page and totally silence all the detractors.

... for a week or two.

 

more like five minutes ... before we get handed the trophy someone will post a "we would have won more easily w/o player A"

 

I remember sitting in the Summit and watching horry walking up and down the court that series. I remember him telling us through the press, on the day of game 4, BEFORE THE GAME STARTED, that you "can't win it every year."

Horry made some huge shots for the Rockets. I remember him well. But let's not pretend this guy was all effort all the time.

 

Rocketman95's awesome analysis.

 

Well, I don't want to come across as the elitist and start bad-mouthing fans, especially Rockets fans, because we are all members of the same worldwide family. However, it does seem like some have (1) short-term memories, (2) lack of loyalty that fluctuates as the wind blows, and (3) absence of perspective.

I've been a fan since 1986 (I lived in New York up until then, so you were spoiled because, having practically 2 teams in all 4 major sports, there were always championships in some fashion). I made it a point to study the Rockets history because I was the prototypical rabid, fanatic fan.

What I've found is that many, many players have been forgotten for their contributions to the Rockets history. Hayes, Newlin, Marin, Murphy, Robert Reid, Jim Peterson, Walter Berry, Larry Smith, Mitchell Wiggins, even someone like Rick Barry, whom Rudy Tomjanovich said in his biography was a great teammate and professional for the 1 1/2 years he was here. For every Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler, there's a Charles Jones, Earl Cureton, Matt Maloney, or Allen Leavell that gets forgotten about. All contributed in some way, shape, or form to the Rockets legacy. And if you're a true fan, in my definition anyway (can't speak for others), then you celebrate all our Rockets "heroes," including a passing nod to what little someone like Scottie Pippen brought.

Just because I like Steve Jobs doesn't mean I have to insult Steve Ballmer. Just because I preferred Ronald Reagan doesn't mean I have to diss Walter Mondale and his contributions. Where would Radiohead be without the precedent set by groups/artists like Pink Floyd, Brian Eno, and U2, not to mention the Talking Heads (whose song gave the group their name)? Does not Steven Hawking acknowledge all that Sir Isaac Newton brought to the table? Where would Vera Wang be without Coco Chanel? Can a fan of M.C. Escher not be a fan of Salvador Dali? Didn't William Faulkner name The Sound and the Fury after a line from Shakespeare's MacBeth? How does Brittany Spears become a sensation without the precedent set by Debbie Gibson and Tiffany? Does Jerry Yang even exist without Tim Berners-Lee?

What's the common denominator among all these? The respect of history. I see Rafer Alston shocking us with his all-over-the-place, out-of-nowhere excellent play and I'm reminded of a similarly "where did that come from?" performance from Kenny Smith in Game 1 of the NBA Finals, 1995 (not in terms of impact, but shock value- even Smith never hit that many 3s and played that good in a single game- remember, Smith was frequently ostracized as a point guard for the Rockets). I see rookies like Landry and Scola and I'm reminded of two rookies in 1994 (OK, Horry was a sophomore) performing in the same manner. I see the excellence of players like T-Mac and Yao, and I'm reminded of the similar excellence, although at a higher level, of Dream and Clyde. In a Dickensian manner, I respect Rockets Past, Rockets Present, and Rockets Future.

Or, put another way:

"lawrence of arabia, british beatlemania
Ole miss, john glenn, liston beats patterson
pope paul, malcolm x, british politician sex
Jfk, blown away, what else do I have to say

We didnt start the fire...."

Or, "Ryan Started the Fire......."

That's what she said.

 

straight up word! must be a Jazz board where that crap will seem cute ...

 

Now, I must add that while you can respect the individuals for what they did as Rockets, you can certainly disagree with them and hold them in lower esteem if they themselves do something to cause this. I watched the whole TNT broadcast last night. Here's the thing with Charles- he has always been of the mindset that "you are either great or you stink." That's been his schtick even when he was a player. The Rockets would have to win it all for us to get his respect- or at least an NBA Finals appearance. For Kenny, he's not really qualified to talk about great players- he's never been close to being one and he never will. So for Kenny to comment about any player "not making his teammates better" -well, dang, Kenny, you didn't exactly set assist records with the Rockets, did you? He should stick to talking about team play and what it takes to succeed as a team. He obviously has no idea what it means to make other players better.

Speaking of which, that whole "making other players better" is such a crock in the way it's applied. EVERY ALL-STAR PLAYER MAKES THE OTHERS BETTER, SIMPLY BY BEING ON THE FLOOR. Now, you have someone like T-Mac who creates multiple open opportunities for players, or someone like Hakeem Olajuwon who protects the basket defensively when someone like KENNY SMITH'S MAN BURNS BY HIM, and now you're talking about players who make their teammates MUCH BETTER instead of better. I think there may be some merit to arguments like "He's never been a champion so he's not as good a player," but not much. How many championships did Bagwell win? Do you really think he's a lesser player because of this? H-E-double hockey sticks NO!

I think that some of these analysts have really lost the ability to think- it's like they are a private fraternity who makes up their own set of rules, and, unfortunately, due to the fact that they reach millions, influence the thinking of the masses with completely wrong information. Last night's ridiculous backtracking (I really felt embarrassed for them- for 2 award-winning commentators, they've never looked more uncomfortable) was a textbook example of that.

 

The point is that Horry's there when you need him. McGrady is the opposite. When the chips are down, he disappears and 40 point losses get hung on the Rockets.

I would also like to apologize for the whole "McLady" thing. You guys are right. To call McGrady that is a slap in the face to proven winners.



My bad.

 

Great job of completely sabotaging any valid points you made. You're seriously comparing the WNBA to the NBA? What a tool. Anti-Sonic? You sound more like the Anti-Logic to me.

 

Oh, you mean when the chips were down in Game 7 of 2005 playoffs and he had 27 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, and no one else except Yao scored in double figures?

Or perhaps you mean Game 7 of last year when he had 29 points, 13 assists, 3 blocks, and only 2 turnovers.

You mean 2005 playoffs when he averaged 30.7 ppg, 7.4 rpg, and 6.7 apg
or last years playoffs when he averaged 25.3 ppg, 5.9 rpg, and 7.3 apg.

Not to mention he has career playoff averages of 28.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg, and 6.1 apg, even with his terrible Orlando teams.

Yeah...never delivers...

 

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. Support Rafer, Shane, Luis, Tracy, Dikembe, Bobby, Chuck, Luther, Steve, Aaron, and all the rest- because that is what you would want if the Nikes were on your feet.