Prewar justifications: bringing democracy to the ME

You mock our allies, who stood with us, and risked the lives of their soldiers to fight along side our own.

That is far worse than forgetting Poland.

 

Their actions in Afghanistan, Haiti(they were wrong there, but they were on our side), Iran, etc. are all examples of them behaving in cooperation with us.

 

I also didn't support President Bush's military exchange program with China. Even after the 'spy plane' incident Bush went ahead with his plan that had U.S. military guys going to China, and Chinese military guys coming here to look at training, weapons systems, and development etc. I also don't agree with China having the most favored nation status, etc.

But France hasn't done all that much more in regards to supporting the Chinese military than the U.S. has. I'm obviously not in favor of France selling weapons to China, and neither is Bush. But I think Bush is sending mixed signals of what military exchanges are ok with China, and which ones aren't.

I also notice that Bush doesn't make a big stink of China's tibet policy, crack down of demonstrations, and the like. Bush needs to make up his own mind about whether China are our bestest buddies, or a repressive regime. If Bush straddles the fence and France sells China weapons then I hardly see that as being worthy of removing them from the ally list, when they have been helpful in plenty of other areas including those I already mentioned. In addition they apprehended several AQ suspects who had been planning attacks etc.

Selling arms to nation that the U.S. carries on military exchange programs with, sending it's troops to fight along side ours in Afghanistan, working with the U.S. to oust the leader of Haiti, and disagreeing with us on Iraq doesn't remove a traditional ally from the list, by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. That is especially true when France wanted to try other options in Iraq, which would have eventually shown that there were no WMD's and wouldn't have cost all those lives. Maybe we should listen more to our allies since in some cases they've been right, and we've been wrong.

 

Nice post. France has always consciously fostered an independent national policy within the NATO Alliance. Anyone remember De Gaulle? We need to remember that, from the French perspective, we weren't always there for them. During the war in Indochina, when the French were trying to hold on to their colony, they begged for American help, and part of their argument was that even if we were opposed to colonialism, which, of course, we were, that it was in our interest to assist them, because without that assistance, it would fall to a communist regime. They were right, and then looked on in bewilderment as we then went into Vietnam ourselves into a massive, nightmare war.

Many here seem to think that our allies should do what we want, regardless of their concerns, and our dismissal of their concerns provokes the chaos we see now in our relationships with most of those allies of decades long standing. The hubris of the Bush Administration has damaged so much. We are seeing that damage now with our invasion and occupation of Iraq, without taking the time to get our allies on board, with the compromises necessary to do so, because of the whim of George W. Bush.

Look to Afghanistan, if anyone thinks Iraq had to be as it is today, with those who did support us leaving, one by one, and the United States bearing all the financial burden and the overwhelming number of casualties. Iraq was Bush's voluntary adventure, and the allies be damned. If good comes from it, it will be a damned miracle, and we are weaker now because of it. And the whole world knows we are weaker for it.



Keep D&D Civil!!

 

Oh, for god's sake, basso. If you can't figure out that I was talking about post-WWII, I don't know what to say.

Well, I could, but it wouldn't be civil.



Keep D&D Civil!!

 

You're dead on with this observation. Quite apart from the WMD spin, the human rights spin or any other headline grabbing fabrication, the real failure was in convincing the other nations that it was in their best interest to march along side Uncle Sam, here.

Nations act in their own self interest. Always.

And, on the one hand, it speaks volumes for George's failures in convincing them that Iraq was in their best interest.

However, it also means that the 'next' time something happens, their perceived self interest will cancel out any grudge they may hold from Iraq. I've marched in anti-IRaq protests. I think George is a weenie (and that the colouring book joke is funny no matter how often i hear it), but i think very little permanent or irreparable damage has been done by George's trigger happy endeavor. And if it results in a more democratic and stable base within the Middle East, then, regardless of how reckless, deceptive, or foolhardy it may have been at the time, all will be quickly forgiven...

 

Given that I think the U.S. is too lax on China, I certainly wouldn't agree with this statement.

But again, I don't think that the French position on China would in anyway remove them from our ally list. The case might be different if the U.S. took an aggressive anti-China policy as well, but it doesn't. We do booming business with China, conduct military exchange prgorams with China, and refuse to stand up against their totalitarian measures.

Of course that is balanced with military sells and ventures with Taiwan.

So I hardly think the U.S. has a clear stand on this one way or the other. It's a mixed message we are sending.

 

And the current US Admin. has done what about that law?

 

Nope but China policy still remains the same. This admin. still officially supports the ONE CHINA policy along with MFN status and military exchanges with the PRC.

It looks to me like they support the spirit if not the letter of that law.

 

I agree many administrations have been weak on China. That isn't the point. The point is that when our administration isn't taking a strong stand against China, it would be wrong to wipe France off the allies list because they are also not taking a strong stand, or even helping them.

If we were at war with China and France sold them arms yes they shouldn't be considered an ally. If we don't have a strong stand against China, then aiding China isn't a big stab in the back.

 

No, it was you who said you had trouble seeing France as an ally. The U.S., The Bush administration, and I never said that they weren't an ally. The rejecting of allied status was done by you.