Manny, You believe that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ. You believe that God does not make certain that anyone believes in Christ. If one person could have rejected Christ, couldn't every person have rejected Christ? If it was possible that everyone could have rejected Christ, then that means that Christ could have died on the cross and everyone could have gone to hell. Where would that have left God and his plan of redemption? Christ would have died in vain.
Grizzled, It's really only one point. I don't think your answer is logical. Maybe I'm missing something. I would really appreciate it if you would try to explain your answer to me. Me: You believe that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ, but that God does not make certain that anyone believes in Christ. If one person could have rejected Christ, couldn't every person have rejected Christ? You: No. Me: Why not? You: Because fishermen catch fish! Me: What? You: We know that certain people believed in Christ and are in heaven. Me: That has nothing to do with the logic of your position, though. Christ chose to be the Redeemer before the creation of the world. You believe that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ, but that God does not make certain that anyone believes in Christ. If one person could have rejected Christ, couldn't every person have rejected Christ? You: Kate, each of these points has been addressed in considerable detail in this thread already. I don't understand your logic. Suppose that the total number of human beings ever, besides Christ (God incarnate), is represented by the number X. According to your position, the maximum number of people who could have gone to heaven was X, right? Everyone had the ability to believe in Christ. Everyone did. Everyone went to heaven. Your position necessarily implies that everyone could have rejected Christ, too. X number of people could have rejected Christ. X number of people could have gone to hell. Christ would have died in vain. Do you see the logic? Please show me what I'm missing.
Grizzled, I want to let you know exactly what I believe. I'm giving you the link to The Five Points of Calvinism again. I've also giving you a Statement of Faith that I would sign. The Five Points of Calvinism (Click on Who We Are, then Doctrinal Distinctives.) http://www.bbcmpls.org/tion? Statement of Faith We believe the Bible to be the written revelation of God, complete and sufficient in all respects. We believe the Scriptures to be "God-breathed" and therefore fully authoritative in and of themselves; they rely for their authority upon no church, council, or creed, but are authoritative simply because they are the Word of God. The Scriptures, as they embody the very speaking of God, partake of His authority, His power. We believe in one true and eternal God, unchanging, unchangeable. We believe God is the Creator of all that exists in heaven and in earth. The God who is described in the Bible is unique; He is unlike anyone or anything else in all the universe. God has all power, all knowledge, all wisdom, and is due all glory, honor and praise. All that comes to pass does so at the decree of God. All things will, in the end, result in the glory of God. We believe the Bible teaches that there is but one being of God, yet there are three Persons who share this one being of God: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Each Person is fully and completely God, each is described in Scripture as possessing the attributes of God. The Father, Son, and Spirit have eternally existed in the relationship described by the term "Trinity." We believe that man was created in the image of God. Man rebelled against His Creator, and fell into sin. As a result, man became spiritually dead, totally unwilling and indeed incapable of seeking after God. God, from eternity past, having foreordained all things, joined a certain people to Christ Jesus, so that He might redeem them from their sin and in so doing bring glory to Himself. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died in the place of this elect people, providing full and complete forgiveness of sins by His death upon the cross of Calvary. No other work can provide for forgiveness of sins, and no addition can be made to the completed and finished work of Christ. We believe that God, in His sovereign grace and mercy, regenerates sinful men by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by any action of their own, bringing them to new life. God grants to them the gifts of faith and repentance, which they then exercise by believing in Christ and turning from their sins in love for God. As a result of this faith, based upon the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, God justifies or makes righteous the one who believes. God's gift of faith, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the elect, results in good works. These good works flow from true, saving faith; they are a necessary result of faith, but are not to be considered necessary to the gaining of justification, which is by God's grace through faith alone, so that no man can boast. We believe Jesus Christ established His Church, which is made up of all the elect of God. His Church, as an obedient bride, listens to His Word as found in the Bible. All who believe in Christ are placed in His body, the Church. The local expressions of the Church are very important, and each believer should be actively involved in such a fellowship. We believe that Christ is coming again to judge the living and the dead. This promise is found throughout the inspired Scriptures. Till His return, believers are to live lives that bring glory to God through Jesus Christ. The Church is to be busy doing the work of evangelism and discipleship, proclaiming the pure, uncompromised Gospel of Christ by teaching the Word of God. http://aomin.org/AOFAITH.html
So this would suggest that either humans have no free will or that there are something like “no free will zones” that flow the elect who have not accepted God yet to prevent them from getting killed. While this is not beyond God’s capacity, it’s not consistent with the way God does things. Although there are many mysteries, God’s overall plan is much more straight forward. I think all I’ll say to the reader on this one is read the Bible and decide for yourself if this is consistent. I submit that it quite plainly isn’t. As you are a member of the CRC and as you started this thread I was placing an expectation on you to make a case for the position that you raised. And I still am. As this doctrine claims to be consistent with the Bible, it should be our primary point of reference. I have in fact read Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace sections from this website: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/tulip.html Although on the surface they are not as blatantly false as the Myth of Free Will piece, they are fundamentally flawed in a manner that still makes you wonder if there is some intentional plan to mislead. In the first there are great strings of quotes that answer a different question that the one implied, IMO, but maybe the author just didn’t understand the issue he was addressing. The second, while it says some things that I certainly agree with (and even some that I think are very useful to disproving their own position), contains key points that are essentially unsupported or deceptively supported. And it fallaciously basses further conclusions on these faulty premises. I would probably agree to get into that but I reserve the right not to, because this is another diversion away from the Bible. If you have a case you need to be able to support it with the Bible. In many, many places. The whole of the Bible is about that choice being offered. Start with the dozen passages about Christ coming for ALL people and we can move on to many more from there. Do the elect have a choice? If not, then you are saying they are forced to make a certain decision, that they do not have the free will not to choose. You can’t have it both ways. It isn’t one point, but that’s ok. I’ll answer your questions. First, to be complete, as I mentioned off the top, I’m loose on whether the ability to choose may not extend to certain key Biblical figures, although I’ve heard convincing arguments in favour of them having a choice. Were the disciples predestined? Judas? Even though the roles of some were clearly predestined, some argue that even for them there was a choice at some point. The broader question about whether the vase majority of Christians have the responsibility to choose is made very clear by the numerous passages already posted in this thread. Re: the fishers of men. God uses parables for a reason. He uses them because they are like what he is trying to describe. Fishermen catch fish. They don’t catch all the fish in the ocean/sea/lake buy they do catch some. God’s use of this example is proof alone that some will be caught. But further, we know from the whole of the NT that fish were caught. I really don’t see what you are getting at here, and trying to play games with the word of God like this is a really very very bad thing to do. I need to also note that I don’t believe you are quoting me directly. I request from here on in that you use my exact words. Again you have clearly misrepresented my position. And again, the Bible says that Jesus told the disciples they would be fishers of men. Are you really suggesting that he was being deceitful and that these people were really incapable of catching a single fish?! You should be very very careful about implying things like that about the words of Christ and the Bible in general. Wow. I’m quoting this just so no one misses it. Clearly this doesn’t deserve a response.
If this is true, then address the Bible. How long is this thread? How often have you actually gotten into the text and context of the Bible?
Grizzled, Do you disagree with my assertion that God determines when you die? Do you disagree with my assertion that God foreordains all that comes to pass?
In a macro sense he does. In that he granted us any free will at all, (and you and your doctrine seem to acknowledge that at least to some degree he has), then clearly on a micro level he has not foreordained all that will pass. That is exactly what “free will” means, and that choice he has given us is the very point of our lives, in fact. If you say that all is foreordained on both a macro and a micro level then you are denying that any free will exists at all and all of life is nothing more than the playing out of a pre-written script. Clearly that would be pointless and the Bible does not support that. This comment looks a little mean spirited so I need to explain it a little better. I’m not trying to show you up personally, but as it becomes increasingly clear that you can’t support your case from scripture and are by now clearly not even attempting to, the way you conduct yourself becomes the true window on what is behind your motives and claims. The diversions, the manipulation, the word games, the misrepresentation, are all the fruits that reveal the nature of the tree.
I think that in some sense, this doctrine does deny "free-will" but the reason for that is that there are a number of definitions of "free-will." JV had asked where you got the Biblical basis for free-will and you said it was in there on a macro level, that essentially, the ability to choose God is a reflection of our free will. The reformed view of what is seen on a macro level is very different. Romans 6:17-18, for example, "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Being a slave to sin, you don't really have much choice about whether you sin or not. But this is a picture of having been set free to follow God. Of course, this passage also points to being set free from the bondage of slavery only to be "slaves to righteousness" - which doesn't look like freedom as we conceive of it today. My point is that the reformed position is that the Bible teaches that a Christian is set free from bondage to sin and the ultimate consequences of being a sinner. But we were set free in order that we may follow Christ and advance His kingdom (not our own agendas) so that we strive to work for the completion of his purposes and not against them. As for whether or not there is free-will in the sense that we can oporate independently of God's will, no. I don't think God is on His throne scrambling to accomodate our actions. How could Jesus have told the twelve that Judas was going to betray Him if Judas could then just change his mind? How could he have told Peter he would deny him three times if Peter could have done differently? Could God have sent his Son only for Mary to have been stoned for adultury before He was born? My arguement is that from before the creation of the world, God already knew exactly what he wanted to accomplish and how he was going to accomplish it on the micro level as well as on the macro level. In other words, God is Sovereign. We already know that this view doesn't sit well with you because you look at the whole of the Bible differently. Please consider that what reformed Christians are espousing is not a random, unreasoned or unBiblical view. Perhaps both contrary views could be supported directly from the Bible. Certainly, neither of them are new, we know that the early church repeatedly addressed this subject. Kate, Thanks for introducing the subject, it has been quite enlightening for me to read Grizzles responses because I've never encountered anyone make such a heartfelt and honest attempt to provide a Biblical reason behind denying predestination. But, I would suggest we table the discussion until all of us have some time to study the other side of the issue a bit better. As Madmax has pointed out, the discussion has quite disintegrated. Grizzled, on that note, could you suggest one or two theologians that you think well represent your position? For my part I would strongly recommend R.C. Sproul's, Chosen by God or J. I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God.
I read this yesterday and just couldn't respond. Still can't. You just compared a basketball game to spending eternity in hell! No...no further questions.
How about... God knows everything that will happen in the future, but chooses not to intervene in every single thing. Why bother at all to pray? Prayer would be absolutely worthless, except for praise and thanks. Why pray for our troops, why pray for the sick and afflicted? If everything is predetermined, then God created sin and caused Adam and Eve to commit the first one.
Moe, I'm sorry. Everytime I try to say something to encourage you, I make things worse. It's just that some non-Christians might think, "Well, if God has already predestined certain people to salvation, then why should I bother to learn about Christ? I can't change God's plan in any way." I was just trying to encourage you and other non-Christians not to think that way. I used the basketball analogy not to compare losing a basketball game to going to hell but to show why it's important for non-Christians to find out about Christ even though God has predestined certain people to salvation. I know that if I were in that situation, I would play. And I think that almost every sports fan would play. Why would someone play if he/she knew that God had already determined the winner? If a non-Christian thinks about the answer to that question, I think that it might help him/her to understand why he/she should take the time to find out about Christ even though the Bible states that God has predestined certain people to salvation. It was God's sovereign will that Jesus Christ (God the Son) be crucified by the very people who crucified him, but the people who crucified him are responsible for what they did. God did not force them to crucify Christ. (Why we're responsible for being sinners even though we're born as sinners is a question I can answer for you if you want me to.) This question goes along the same lines as why a non-Christian should try to find out about Christ even though God has predestined certain people to salvation. If a Christian has a son/daughter who's a U.S. soldier in Iraq, he/she prays for the soldier's safety, right? But why pray if he/she knows that God will accomplish His sovereign will in alll things? It could be God's sovereign will that the soldier die in Iraq, in which case he/she will. It could be God's sovereign will that the soldier not die in Iraq, in which case he/she will not. So why present our requests to God? God tells us in the Bible to present our requests to him, with thanksgiving. Why would he tell us to do that if he's also told us that he will accomplish his sovereign will in all things? There are many reasons, but I'll focus on the one that I think is applicable to your question. I've written that God foreordains the means to salvation as well as the end of salvation. The preaching of the gospel is a means by which people hear the gospel, believe in Christ, and are saved. Similarly, prayer is a means by which God accomplishes his sovereign will. God has already predestined those who will be saved, and he's already foreordained all the events that will ever occur. But we don't know who the elect are and we don't know what his sovereign will in general is. All we can do is evangelize. Maybe God will use our preaching to save someone. All we can do is pray. Maybe God will use our prayer to protect a soldier in Iraq. If it's God's sovereign will that the soldier die, then the soldier will die. Christians use the phrase, "Thy will be done" when we pray. Whatever our requests are, we want God's will to be done, whatever it is. We want God to be glorified above all else. God glorifies himself by accomplishing his sovereign will. That might sound like a selfish thing, but it's not. God actually grants all of our prayer requests in a way, because in every prayer request, the request that God's will be done is above all other requests. What effect does God accomplishing his sovereign will have on Christians? Does God accomplishing his sovereign will mean that the well-being of Christians is less important to God then the accomplishment of his sovereign will? Not at all. God not only glorifies himself by accomplishing his sovereign will, he does what's best for all his children. The Bible states that, in all things, God works for the good of those who love him. Everthing that happens to us in our lives, even the things that are the most painful (like losing loved ones), happens to us for our own good. It might not seem like that at the time in many situations, but it's true. There are no real accidents in this life. God is in control of everything in all of creation and God foreordains all that comes to pass. God has predestined those he will save, but that shouldn't stop Christians from evangelizing, and it shouldn't stop non-Christians from trying to find out about Christ. God will accomplish his sovereign will, but that shouldn't keep Christians from presenting their prayers and petitions to God, with thanksgiving. We can be certain that God, in all things, works for the good of those who love him. Sincerely, KateBeckinsale7
Mrs. Valdez, I've been pressing one point at length, so I take the blame for the "disintegration" in the debate. I think it's a fundamental point, though. I wonder what you think. I'm trying to keep in mind that my aim should be to glorify God. I admit that my sin of pride gets in the way of remembering that aim, and maybe that's what's leading me to go on. I don't think that this discussion is going to much last longer, anyway. I welcome any criticism you have of me. There are so many Bible verses that I want to address this weekend. I have a passion for proclaiming the doctrines of grace because I think they go to the heart of the gospel. I appreciate your suggestion, and I'm sorry that I'm not taking your advice, but I just want to make some important points before the discussion is over. Sincerely, KateBeckinsale7 P.S. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend The Glory of Christ, by R. C. Sproul.
Grizzled, I'm sorry. I was honestly trying to understand the logic of your position, and I was trying to use different ways to make my point. I still don't see how it was certain that at least one person would go to heaven if everyone had "free will" the way you define it. If you want to take the position that God predestined at least one person to salvation, then that answers the question. Your position now seems to be that it's possible that God did not give the "ability to choose" to everyone in the Bible. You're claiming now that that was your position from the beginning. If it was, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding your position and for pressing the point I've been pressing. If I had known that you were not taking a firm stance, I probably would have argued much differently than I have been arguing. I thought your position at the beginning was that you weren't sure whether everyone has the ability to believe in Christ, but that you were going to take the position that everyone does have the ability to believe in Christ for the purposes of our discussion. I was arguing against that position. Then you made an "amendment" because of John 12:32. You wrote: "The choice is to say yes to God. God calls everyone. (I would have previously said that he calls almost everyone, but in light of the John 12 passage I’ll amend that.) That is the free will he gave us. He knew many would answer and would become the body of Christ that will fulfill his purposes, but if he knew which specific individuals would be called then the whole thing becomes a predetermined, meaningless charade." I understood your amendment to mean that you were now firm in your belief that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ, and that you weren't just taking that position for the purposes of the discussion. I also took your amendment to mean that you didn't believe that God predestined any individuals. Besides, you had already written that the position you were taking for the purposes of the discussion was that God did not predestine any individuals. You wrote: "I don’t believe that individuals are predestined, at least not the vast majority of them, and I think I’ll stick with none for the purpose of this discussion for now." Therefore, I continued to argue against the position that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ. I was also arguing against the position that God did not predestine any individuals. Now you write: "First, to be complete, as I mentioned off the top, I’m loose on whether the ability to choose may not extend to certain key Biblical figures, although I’ve heard convincing arguments in favour of them having a choice." I thought your position was: 1. Everyone has the ability to believe in Christ and everyone has the ability to reject Christ. 2. God did not predestine any individuals. How is that position consistent with the idea that certain people in the Bible did not have the "ability to choose"? It's difficult to argue against a position that's "loose." I thought that you had taken the firm position that God does not predestine individuals and that everyone has the ability to believe in Christ and everyone has the ability to reject Christ. Is that the position you're taking for the purposes of the discussion or not? Didn't your "amendment" result in that firm position? Thanks for the time and effort you've spent in challenging my position. This weekend, I'm going to devote a lot of time to addressing the Bible verses you've raised. I wasn't planning not to address them.
Matthew 7:7-11 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Grizzled, I believe that when we ask our heavenly Father for something, He gives us what is best for us, regardless of what we're asking for. I believe that we should pray that God's will be done above all else. Jesus is comparing our heavenly Father to earthly fathers. If earthly fathers give their children what's best for them, how much more will our heavenly Father give us what's best for us. I believe that God's children truly seek Him (and ask, and knock). I don't believe that an unregenerate person can truly seek God (or ask, or knock). It might look like true seeking, and it might feel like true seeking, and I would urge all non-Christians to find out about Christ and even to "seek" God by reading the Bible, praying to God, going to church, learning about the Christian faith, etc. Many Christians have taken that path to becoming a Christian, but I believe that a person becomes a Christian because God opens his/her heart. If a non-Christian feels that he/she truly wants to believe in Christ but can't, then I urge him/her to pray to God and to ask Him for faith, because God might use that path to bring the person to saving faith in Christ. Just as a comparison, I recognize that non-Christians do many "good" things in this world. I just don't believe that they can do anything that is truly good as long as they're living according to the sinful nature. They can't do anything truly pleasing to God. The Reformed position recognizes that a person controlled by the sinful nature cannot do anything truly good or anything pleasing to God. That is what the Bible teaches. Paul emphasizes that point in Romans 3:9-18 when he quotes from the Old Testament: What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. all have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes." We are born as sinners, Jews and Gentiles alike. And we are all alike under the law. "No one seeks God." "All have turned away." The passage above is not a description of people who truly seek, ask, and knock. "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God" (Romans 8:6-8). "Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." It does not allow for an exception. Believing in Christ would be an exception, because believing in Christ is pleasing to God. God commands everyone to believe in Christ and to repent. The call of the gospel goes out to all people. The problem is that we're born as people who live according to the sinful nature. "There is no fear of God before their eyes. No one seeks God." "All have turned away." "Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." "The sinful mind is hostile to God." People like that do not respond positively to the gospel of God's grace. "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4). Unless God opens a person's heart like he opened Lydia's heart in Acts 16:14, a person can listen to someone preach the gospel to him, but he will not believe in Christ, because he/she cannot even see the light of the gospel. On "entering into a relationship with God," you wrote: "It’s about submission (with full humility), acknowledgment, acceptance." How can someone who has no fear of God, who does not seek God, who has turned away from God, who is hostile to God, and who cannot please God submit to God with full humility? I don't think it's possible. That's why I don't think that God gives everyone the ability to accept Christ. It's not that God is not a God of love. He is. But He states that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy" (Romans 9:16). I hope to discuss Romans 9 in detail later, but I'll leave it there for now. I think that the Bible verses that I've given in this post show that a person who lives according to the sinful nature would never choose to respond positively to the gospel of God's grace. That's why I reference Lydia so often. One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message" (Acts 16:14). When you take that verse in concert with all the verses above, I think you see what it is that makes such depraved human beings respond to the gospel. It is God, who is rich in mercy and grace, opening up a person's heart, raising him/her to spiritual life, and giving him/her spiritual sight so that that he/she can respond to the gospel of God's grace.
Grizzled, On "entering into a relationship with God," you wrote: "It’s about submission (with full humility), acknowledgment, acceptance." What about someone who doesn't submit to God with full humility? Can he/she believe in Christ? Is the willingness to submit to God with full humility part of what differentiates a person who believes in Christ from a person who doesn't? The Bible teaches that unregenerate people are dead in their transgressions (i.e., spiritually dead). What is it about certain people who are dead in their transgressions that causes them to believe in Christ? According to the Reformed position, there is nothing in any unregenerate person that causes him/her to believe in Christ. The elect are not superior to the non-elect in any way. A person only believes in Christ as a result of God opening his/her heart. Soli Deo Gloria.
Grizzled, I agree that everyone knows that God exists, whether they acknowledge God or not. No one will have the excuse that they didn't know that God existed. If I understand your point, though, you're arguing that the above passage necessarily implies that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ. I don't think that the passage implies that at all. I think it's just stating that everyone can see God's revelation in creation and that no one has an excuse for not knowing that God exists. What if God had decided not to save sinners? Everyone still would have known about God. Everyone still would have been without excuse. Everyone still would have deserved to go to hell.
Grizzled, "All men" can mean all people without distinction (i.e., all kinds of people, Jews and Gentiles) and it can mean all people without exception (i.e., every individual). I think that Jesus is referring to all people without distinction in John 12:32. One of the keys is in John 12:20-23: Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. "Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus. Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." Some Greeks wanted to see Jesus, but the time had come for Jesus to be glorified. In referring to his crucifixion, though, he said, "I, when I am lifted up, will draw all men unto myself." I think he meant that Greeks and other Gentiles would be among those saved. 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 refers to "Christ crucified." "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:21-24). Christ crucified is, "to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." Note also that 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 refers to "those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks." "Called" is being used in the same way it's used in Romans 8:29-30: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. God predestined certain people to salvation. Those people would be all people without distinction. Those people would be called, justified, and glorified. The NIV Study Bible states: 12:32. all men. Christ will draw people to himself without regard for nationality, ethnic affiliation, or status. It is significant that Greek Gentiles were present on this occasion (v. 20).
Grizzled, The above passage is not inconsistent in any way with the Reformed position. Paul writes that God predestined certain people to salvation later on in the same letter. God foreordains all that comes to pass. That doesn't make our lives "pointless." "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).
