Predestination

FREE WILL

 

Um, free will but if you want me to get more elaborate, I will. Basically, I learned and read about the life of Christ from the Bible and through the church and something inside me told me that He is the Way. Of course, I was too young at the time to fully understand that it was God and not some little voice inside of me telling me that. The problem I have with your view (well just one of them) is that evangelism is a big part of Christianity, more so in some churches compared to others. If someone, according to you, has no chance of being "redeemed" in God's eyes, then what is the point of trying to convert a non-Christian to Christianity? There never should be a need for evangelism because eventually since they are "predestined", they will come to church anyway and accept Christ as their savior. I guess that also means that all missionary work that is done in other countries is a fruitless task, as well.

Nothing is more satisfying to me as a Christian than to see someone become a Christian; however, if they heard some of this stuff that you believe in, they would probably be scared to commit themselves to the Lord and Christ. They would probably have this crazy notion that they weren't good enough since they didn't become a Christian at age 12 or younger or whatever but instead in their late 20's or older.

Let me ask YOU a question - you have said (or at least I remembered this) that you just recently became a Christian, right? I take it that you are at least 18 but more likely in your mid to late 20s. If you believe that you are a part of this "predestined" group, why did it take you so long to become a Christian? Why weren't you a Christian when you were 12 (which is the age that most people become Christians because it is thought of that they are old enough to understand what it truly means to accept Jesus as their Savior). Doesn't this contradict everything you believe in with predestination? Can you really try to answer this without trying to murk things up by quoting a bunch of scripture or articles that have little to do with that question?


What is it in someone who goes to hell that caused him/her not to believe in Christ?

I don't know because I have never conversed with anyone that is in Hell right now and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Besides, as a Christian, who am I to say who goes to Hell and who doesn't? I mean that is judging someone, is it not? Do you not know that Jesus, Himself, said "Judge not unless you want thee judged?" (paraphrased).

One other thing that I will say and I will be out of this thread (unless you can show me that you will really answer my question about becoming a Christian). It is great that you are a Christian and so proud to share that with people, especially a bunch of strangers over the Internet on a basketball site. To my knowledge, I have seen very little of anything else from you here other than stuff to do with religion. One reason why I do not post often in this forum is that I am not a very good debater like a lot of these other people that post here all the time. You have shown (at least to me and probably others) a tendency to want to engage in debate but then never fully answer questions that are asked of you. Instead, what you do is come back with scripture or articles that have little to do with what was asked of you. What that causes, KB7, is people to write you off and not take you seriously. Maybe you don't care, which that is cool. You have a right not to care - however, you may find it slim pickings around here in the future unless you can show people here that you fully understand what people are debating with you about and that you can effectivelydebate back with them.

 

This is the kind of talk that makes me sick to my stomach and makes me want to say good-bye to Christianity forever.

I abhor the idea of living for "death" to begin with. I hope that one day all of humanity can get overcome that mindset. Heaven exists right here, right now. Death is nothing but the temporary end of this temporary phenomenon.

Please try to understand.

Karma means action, means "to do". Immediately we have an indication that the real meaning of karma is not fate because karma is action. It is dynamic. But it is more than simply action because it is not mechanical action. It is not unconscious or involuntary action. It is intentional, conscious, deliberate, willful action. How is it that this intentional, willful action conditions or determines our situation? It is because every action must have a reaction, an effect. This truth has been expressed in regard to the physical universe by the great physicist Newton who formulated the law which states that every action must have an equal and opposite reaction. In the moral sphere of conscious actions, we have a counterpart to the physical law of action and reaction, the law that every intentional, willful action must have its effect.

Good news people! Sorrow and happiness (hell and heaven) one experiences are the natural outcome of one's own good and bad actions. If you truly decide to do so, you can confidently rely on yourself for your own salvation and purification.

 

Kate, I did end up reading that last article (The Myth of Free Will) you posted (I only read the third part as the first two are not at issue in this discussion), and I’m stunned. It is so so wrong, demonstrably wrong, on every point. I don’t know where to start. The first point is that this shows the importance of reading the Bible yourself. I do not believe that you could read the Bible and come to those same conclusions yourself. They are not close to what the Bible really says. This is a misrepresentation at the most fundamental level of what the Bible says and means. Remember the problems that Protestants have pointed to in the Catholic Church’s doctrine over the centuries. These were allowed to a large extent by the fact that the average Catholic didn’t read the Bible. Protestants and any group are susceptible to the same corruptions. What a church is is a body of people with similar beliefs who come together to share, learn from each other, and support each other. If you have a situation where an individual or a small group dictates meaning to followers, you can be sure that you will have significant corruption.

I’m glad you said that you are open to questioning your position on this because without that there is no way to learn, no way to move forward. If you honestly read the scripture for yourself you will see a completely different Bible. Note that you will not read it exactly the way I do, or anybody else. There is room for interpretation and indeed it has always been my experience that different people have different strengths and weaknesses in reading the Bible. When one offers what a certain part of the scripture means to them it can resonate with the Spirit in you and become alive in a new way. Other interpretations may not resonate. That’s normal. That’s how you’re your personal walk with God works. But you will find that that variation in interpretation/focus falls within a certain range. What is written in that CRC piece falls well outside that range. If you start reading the Bible for yourself don’t be surprised it you find it immediately in strong conflict with what is being said there. That’s because it is. The central message of the Bible is a call to a personal relationship with God. It’s a call to make a certain spiritual choice, to, in full humility and submission, accept a fundamentally transforming and liberating gift. (Note that you do not earn a gift. This is fundamental. There are no works involved. There is only a choice to accept a gift). What I see in the CRC piece is a direct denial of that of that call. The suggestion that one either has a pre-existing status (I see no indication of an admission of a personal relationship) or no possibility of gaining that status, is as direct an assault on the very basic message of the Bible as I’ve seen in anything even resembling a legitimate church.

There are many false prophets and deceivers out there who call themselves Christians. They try to dictate to you who God is and what the Bible means. Don’t be fooled. You are responsible for your own walk with God. Get into the Bible and read for yourself. You’ll be amazed at how quickly pieces like that one are debunked. I encourage you to read different commentaries and talk to people too, but it is up to you to discern what the truth is. Your walk with God is a personal walk. God calls us to a personal relationship with him through his Spirit and through his word. There are trickier points in the Bible that won’t be immediately clear, and may not be for years. Growing in faith and understanding is a lifelong journey, and it is your journey. No one can do if for you, and if they try it is a virtual certainly that they are trying to mislead you.

I’d be happy to discuss this further if you like. That piece has clarified the context for me and explains for me the position and attitude you’ve taken, so I’ll be engaging in this in a very different way now. But the key has to be an examination of the Bible itself. Don’t be fooled by these “interpretations”. Everybody from David Koresh to David Duke to Sun Myung Moon with have an interpretation for you. Unless you are checking them against the Bible itself they are worthless to you. You won’t know which parts are true and which aren’t, and every interpretation my man will contain parts that at least somewhat off, and many have no truth at all. It is your responsibility to read the Bible for yourself and discern for yourself what it means. I cannot stress this enough. Your walk with God is a personal walk. Ideally it will be helped by a supportive Christian community, but if your community tries to tell you they know what is right and wrong and that you can’t understand the Bible for yourself, run, don’t walk, away from that church. It will not be a Godly place.

If you’d like to continue I think there is one concept that would be important to talk about, but the best term for it has become very politicised and corrupted, so I’d like to check it with you first. What is your understanding of the concept of being “born again”? Generally, what do you understand of the notion of having a “personal relationship" with God?

 

I think that conclusion would require some careful thinking through and explaining because it’s counter intuitive to me.

Well that issues has already been addressed in this thread. As I have already said, (in my very first post no less), I believe there is only one place where Paul’s reference even suggests the predestination of individuals, the one in Romans 8. We’ve specifically discussed how the Ephesians references seem to clearly relate to the Body of Christ too. These are the very points at issue, which I guess you’re just breezing past? Pardon me for being confused by that.

This is a very different question than you asked before and it is indeed at the heart of the issue. Man becomes a Christian by accepting the gift of justification and salvation that God offers us. Man cannot inerrantly follow the Law, but that fact is the very purpose of the Law.

Romans 5
19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

See Romans 1-5 or so for a fuller context and an excellent and very clear explanation.

Essentially the purpose of the Law is to show us that we can’t keep the Law, we can’t do it on our own. It is to break our pride, to humble us, and to call us to turn to God like a child for help. It is a call to relationship and the gift of justification and salvation.

Romans 4
3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[1]
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 5
14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Romans 6
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[1] Christ Jesus our Lord.

And there are more. This is one of clearest points in the Bible. It is a gift. It is not a work. You cannot earn it. It is a gift. (Trying to earn it is essentially a denial of Christ’s saving grace as I pointed out in an earlier passage.)

Now note that this is all inconsistent with Kate’s view of predestination. Salvation is either predetermined, or not possible in her view. Everything that these passages, and the whole book of Romans, say about realising that we can’t live by the law and we must turn to God in faith becomes irrelevant. Do you see the problem here?

 

Kate, each of these points has been addressed in considerable detail in this thread already.

If there is no choice there is no point to any of that. You might as well just have the “chosen people” and be done with it. The notion of the there was a chosen people (the Jews) who were not really a chosen people, but that there was really another chosen people (your concept of the elect) and that all of this was predetermined, defines common sense. It’s pointless. It becomes a meaningless charade if predestination is to be believed. The Bible says, however, that sinful people are called to enter a relationship with God, but the only way this can happen is if their sins are expunged by a sacrifice, like the Old Testament scarifies, except much more powerful and significant. It was offered “once for all” as a gift, as the Bible clearly states. It is offered so people can choose to accept it. That’s its purpose. That is the central message of the Bible, in fact.

Your version of predestination is not supported by the Bible (I note that you always reference “interpreters” rather than Bible passages in their true context), and it defies common sense. Kate, you really need to read the Bible. The answers to these questions are in there. You won’t find the answers in the words of someone who is trying to separate you from the word of God. R. C. Sproul is not telling you the truth. Read the Bible and see for yourself. Read the word of God.

 

I should probably address this too.

Well, condescension is never good, and it wasn’t intentional if that’s how you interpreted it. But you did ignore answers to you questions that had already been posted, or more likely you hadn’t read the thread, and I find that lazy and annoying myself. With regard to the strawman, there really isn’t one, but I did push the issue more than I usually do. But Kate refuses attempt to explain her doctrine. She refuses to address the huge logical contradiction in this theory. If someone can be justified as an adult, are they protected from death until they do? This brings up all kinds of logical inconsistencies, but I’m sure I don’t need to spell that out. She refuses to address the numerous Bible passages that show the theory to be untrue. I am quite sure that she doesn’t because she can’t. This is truly an extreme fringe position that is not considered to have merit by the vast majority of Christians. As such it barely deserves a response, but it is so damaging, it is such poison fruit, that I felt I had to. As many people have pointed out, it is this kind of extremism that damages the impression of Christianity in the greater public. And it doesn’t take much of this to turn people off very quickly. And they should be turned off by this, but they should know that this is not what the Bible says in any way, and it is not consistent with the Christian Spirit in any way, and it is not logical in anyway.

Why did you post it then?

I responded to large amounts of what Kate has said. If you had read the thread you would have known that. Kate has responded to almost nothing of what I have posted in response, or the large amount of contrary Biblical evidence I have provided. It is clearly Kate who is refusing to engage in a reasoned discussion. But I now understand why she can’t. Her position is fatally flawed at a fundamental level. She can’t really engage in a reasoned discussion because the theory, by my honest assessment has one wobbly leg to stand on, (and that has been addressed.) But it was only after reading that “Myth of Free Will” piece that I believe I figured out where she’s coming from on this. What she believes is something that has been fed to her by some one who has fundamentally corrupted the word of God. We could go through that piece passage by passage and very easily show that is has no foundation in the Bible, but Kate won’t respond to Bible passages that contradict her position. A number have already been presented with no response.

I least I now believe I understand where this is coming from. I don’t believe Kate is trying to deceive people here. Rather, I think she herself has been deceived. She is now caught in a tough spot and I’m not unsympathetic to that. So Kate, please understand that my responses are not a personal attack against you. If you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God as I do then I will affirm with you that the answers are in the Bible. Don’t be afraid to get into it and read it through your own eyes. Every Christian needs to do this in fact. Honestly seek the truth and you will find it, and the truth will set you free. There is nothing to fear in seeking the truth.

 

And one more footnote. The truth you will find in the Bible won’t be exactly what I have put forward here. All Christians have strengths and weakness in interpreting the word. This is exactly why you must read it for yourself. Except for the attitude, which I know very well is wrong and is one of my constants struggles, I feel that everything I have said here is in keeping with the word of God, but you can be sure there will be something somewhere that I’ve messed up. Even as Christians we will never be perfect at anything, and we must always be aware of that and be humble and prepared to learn. This is what the body of Christ does for us. Someone will say, “Grizzled, I read this this way in this context for these reasons.” And if it’s right my eyes are usually opened to it and I’m convicted for the way I screwed it up. This is how it works for all of us. No one can dictate. We only share and learn from each other’s insights and they can learn from ours. Never get into a situation where someone is telling you what to believe apart from the word of God. You need to be up to your eyeballs in the word of God yourself and discerning for yourself. That’s what we all are called to do as Christians.

I’ve also reposted my email address if you or anyone wants to talk to me privately about this.

 

Once again, free will and I am fairly sure that Grizzled has already gone into great detail about this earlier in this thread. I mean do you not believe at all that there are people out there that God is telling them to do things and they cannot hear Him? I mean I know you explained the whole regeneration thing, but do you not ever feel that God was talking to you a lot sooner in your life and you just never could hear Him or you could not understand what He was saying to you?




"To lead people to Christ is one of the greatest personal blessings that we ever enjoy. To be a Calvinist takes no joy away from that experience. Historically, Calvinists have been strongly active in evangelism and world mission. We need only point to Edwards and Whitefield and the Great Awakening to illustrate this point."

— R. C. Sproul, Chosen By God

As Grizzled said in one of his posts, R.C. Sproul doesn't carry any weight with me...I mean who is that and why should I care with what he says? I only care about what God or Christ says, not someone who has interpreted something to their liking when that something can be interpreted in all different kinds of ways.

 

the direction of this thread sucks.

thanks.

 

how 'bout the Bahai? haifa's lovely this time of year...