I'd agree with this list assuming the criteria is best PG. PGs in my opinion make their teammates better (this can be by passing, breaking down the D whatever). My best demonstration of this is I can't think of one Rocket player who has had a career year since Stevie has been the PG. One exception may be Mobley who has been much more productive offensively than his rookie year, although alot of that was the system. Shandon Anderson didn't flourish, Dream didn't flourish (more age tahn anything), Cato has shown nothing, Mo T didn't drastically improve, Walt didn't, Griff didn't have a "ROY" type of year, maybe KT but his may be due to minutes. Above all the team plays better when Stevie plays, but Stevie has not gotten anyone to the next level of their potential (again Mobley is probably the exception). However if you rank these guys as best all around players (not necessarily PGs) then Stevie is probably 3rd-4th behind Kidd and Payton.
In terms of being a "true point guard" and making plays, creating for other teammates, and sharing the ball, Steve Francis does not deserve to rank ahead of guys like Kidd, Payton, Miller, Nash, Baron, Bibby and Stockton. These guys come in to the game and completely change the pace of the game and create many opportunities for their teammates to score. Maybe it is a by-product of Rudy's ISO offense, but Francis just doesn't do these things as well. Sure, he's great off the dribble, he's very flashy, and can shoot, but he just isn't the same caliber of *playmaker* that these guards are. The other point I'd make is that a premium is placed on playoff performance. Bibby and Davis benefitted from the spotlight that was placed on them in the playoffs last year. Hopefully Francis will have that chance now that he has a quality supporting cast.
I don't know what's less accurate: The overrating of Steve Nash or the underrating of Steve Francis. Though the writer does have a point, Francis missed some games last season. But when he played he was a threat for a triple double just about every game! A little more work on defense, and watch out!
Couldnt have said it better myself, Most talented - steve would be in the op 5 if not top 3. Most potential Steve would be top 5 maybe top 3. Best overall PG right now - On that list steve is right where he belongs on that list. You are blind if you think that Jason Kidd only did well because he was in the East. Stephon Marbury had almost the same team for quite some time and he couldnt bring the Nets together nearly half as good as J.Kidd did. I mean you can even put Stephon up in the Top 5 most talented/potential Guards, but when you talk about overall, you do have to be able to make your team better overall to get that classification. Although i love Steve's game and it is exciting, he just has not quite reached that the BEST level yet. In my opinion. He can do it. Hopefully he will in time...
that's ridiculous. how has steve not made the players around him better? does it only equate to assists? i'd like to know one peron andre miller has improved in his stint in cleveland. well that's impossible because their team has declined EVERY season. has baron davis specifically made anyone on charlotte better? no, but like steve the team is elevated just by his precense. steve simply being out there takes pressure off of everyone, particularly cat. that's improving him, not just the system. couldn't be more false. saying that is like saying francis will have the same team this year as he did last. marbury didn't get to play with a fully healthy martin, kittles, or van horn and never played with macullough or jefferson. kidd came in right as everyone came off the injured list. sure he would have made them better anyways, but not to the extent it happened.
"that's ridiculous. how has steve not made the players around him better? does it only equate to assists? i'd like to know one peron andre miller has improved in his stint in cleveland. well that's impossible because their team has declined EVERY season. has baron davis specifically made anyone on charlotte better? no, but like steve the team is elevated just by his precense. steve simply being out there takes pressure off of everyone, particularly cat. that's improving him, not just the system. " Look at the stats and the record. No one has came into our system and flourished. Walt Williams has had one good 1/2 season in his 2 years, Mo T didn't improve last year, Dream didn't play better with Stevie, neitehr did Shandon. Look at the freaking stats noone has gotten better (maybe stayed the same but not gotten better). Great players make their teammates better. Yeah it's great that SStevie draws double teams, but it does noone any good when he dribbles the ball off his foot, passes it to a fan in the first row, or throws it to a covered teammate. Great players pass it to where their teammates can make something happen. Say what you want about noone on our team hitting clutch shots but take a look at what MJ did for the bulls. He took a bunch of very average players and carried them. I know Pip is one of the top 50 of all-time but look what he did w/o MJ, nothing. Yeah Rodman was a rebounding machine, but he is a role player. Yeah the Bulls had a lot of serviceable peices but their talent is not much greater than our team last year. With one exception Juordan made his teammates better by giving them the opportunity to get quality shots and opportunities. He took on double teams and passed to a spotted up Kerr or Paxson or dished off to a cutting Pippen, or threw to an open man who passed for a layup. Great players not only put up great stats but they: 1) Make their teammates better 2) Which makes their teams better. Stevie has unlimited potential but to this point the only argument about who is a better player for playing with Stevie is Cat.
There is no question Steve is top 6. Personally, I think it is between him and Davis for the 3/4 slots--and I think SF is probably 3 when healthy. Also, I certainly don't have a doubt in my mind if Sac had aquired SF instead of Bibby last year they would have had an even better record with decent health for SF. Bibby is a fine player, in the 7-10 range on the list, but before he was traded to a good team people thought he was a me first, non-traditional, PG. Just wait until SF has a good team to judge whether he is a prototypical and elite PG. Also, just look at the Rockets record with versus without him in the lineup since he has been on the team. He may not make the other players actually play better, but he sure makes the team harder to defeat. If you are talking the top 5 PG at making their team win more games then without him (what is a better criteria then this for determining best PGs) he is certainly one of them.
If you're looking for a true point guard...where are the Mark Jacksons and the Jamal Tinsley's? These (along with others) guys get the ball around the court and make plays. Steve francis didn't do that last season, admittingly because of the fact that there was really no one he could depend on to score reliably other than himself.
While I disagree with the ranking as it currently stands, I also can't see Francis cracking the top 5. I see it like this: 1 = Kidd or Payton. Your choice. 3 = Davis or Miller. Again, your choice. 5 = Stockton, but dropping fast. 6 = Francis or Marbury or Van Exel 9 = Bibby, Nash, I won't try to place each one exactly since I think a player can vary by one, maybe 2 spots, but I think the above breakdown illustrates where I think Stevie falls. I can't say Francis is top 5 any more than I can say Carter is a top 3 SG (I'm a Raptors fan for those who don't know). I do think that Steve can rank much higher once he actually plays the way they can, gains some playoff experience and gets 100% healthy - but he hasn't.
Guess I might as well give my opinion on this. IMO Bibby,Nash, and Stockton are a bit overrated in this. I checked a bunch of the players' stats, and 2 avg about 8 apg, which is about 1.5 more than Francis, while Bibby avg 5. IMO Steve would have avg this amount or more had we had reliable shooters. Steve's game helps others get wide-open shots. When he passed to a wide open T-MO or KT, they would not make it. However, if Nash had passed to an open Dirk, Stockton to a Malone, or Bibby to a Webber, they would make it. Or they player Steve passed to would set up an Iso instead, like KT or Mobley. (he's not stupid.) I also consider Steve and Baron about the same, but feel Steve will be better. Baron has a lot better supporting cast, though. One thing I have noticed is most of the "better" pg's made the playoffs, despite Steve having better stats, IMO. I understand this factor means the PG can lead a team, but we saw what we were like without Steve. Its very hard to take a team to the playoffs, when they would only get 10-15 wins without you. Most of the PGs above would still have a pretty good team, without them. (Sonics, and Cavs are an exception, IMO.) Also, I think most of the players that didn't improve with Steve were not complimenting his game. Like I said earlier, our offense centered around driving and dishing. Shandon, T-Mo, KT, and Olajuwon couldn't benifit from these open shots. Eddie was 19-years old! Walt did do well because of Steve, but he was always hurt and couldn't get in a groove. Mo was still learning the O, but did start to do real well in the end of the year. Cato gets pretty much all his points because of Steve, ala the Alley-oop. If he could hit a jumper, or learn a post-up move, he'd do better. Here's my list: 1.Kidd-IMO, nothing is better than a triple-double threat. He seems really determined to get assists rather than points. 2.Payton-Been doing this so long, and is very close to Kidd. Not much of a triple-double threat, but is a very good scorer,defender, and assist man. 3.Miller- Doesn't win much, and hasn't improved his team wins wise, but his assist numbers are very impressive. Could get better too. 4.Francis- Like Kidd, he is a triple-double threat. Unlike Kidd, he is able to score. Although he only avg 6.4 apg, this was due to a poor supporting cast and the offense of the Rox. 5.Davis- Not much different than Francis, but IMO he should avg better numbers since he has a better supporting cast. The rest don't really matter to me. Most of them got overrated.
4chuckie - the two years pippen was out he led the bulls into the playoffs, in fact he was a game away from meeting us in the finals. to me you can't look at stats for players and say he didn't score more so steve didn't make him better. that's a double standard, did jordan increase paxson's ppg? doubtfully, but sure he made him better. steve has shown the ability to take a team on his back, it shows in our record without him, very few are more important to their team than steve. remember jordan wasn't leading people anywhere his third season in the league. in fact his second season he spent nursing an injury. you can't compare steve now to a prime jordan. my second beef is that it boggles my mind how andre miller is ahead of francis on anyones list. the excuse for steve is he's never made the playoffs. wtf?!?! miller has not only never made the playoffs but his team has gotten worse each year and he plays in the weaker conference. the only reason i see, is that miller's jock is hung on as the next stockton, so it's popular to say he's the man. same way in that it's popular to rag on steve. no comprende. everything has pointed to steve as the better player, by alot. edit: rc cola i very much agree with most of your post except for even in your comments of miller you put, "doesn't win much and his team hasn't gotten better." how is he a top 3 pg then? it's the popular thing to say isn't it?
I put him ahead because his assists numbers are insane. I don't know how he could do that on such a bad team. However, Steve IMO is not far behind, even if he doesn't avg 11 apg. Also, if Andre avgs 6 or 7apg with the Clipps, I'll understand something is wrong and consider Francis better. Especially if Steve make the playoffs, and Andre doesn't. I don't know much about Cleveland, though. Maybe they are nothing but good wide-open shooters?
RC Cola, read my previous post on the first page of this thread regarding Bibby's assist totals. BigM, just to clarify, Pippen led the Bulls to the second round, not ECF.
rc - ok his assist numbers are amazing, but what does that matter if your team sucks. i mean look at steve, his ppg and rpg tear up miller. are assists so rare that it makes up for losing and a lesser player. don't get me wrong, i like miller, he's atleast an all-star but in no way is he the better player. sorry about that, it just confuses me more than any other basketball related thing.
Well, Steve had an Iso offense where nobody would shoot right when they got the ball. What would be the difference. Bibby would avg more apg if they didn't pass, Francis would get more if they would be able to shoot and wouldn't drive past them. Bibby also has two post players and a good shooter. (webber,vlade,peja.) Steve had no post players, unless you count KT, and the best shooter also like using Iso's as well. (Mobley and Mooch.) As for BigM's post, I consider Steve way better than Andre overall, but this is a PG ranking. I also think it would be hard to avg as much assists on a bad team.But like I said, I didn't watch the Cavs, they could just be good shooters. I will give this year as a test to Miller and Francis. If Francis could get the 8 or 9 apg the others get, because of a healthy team, I'd move him up. If Miller doesn't lead the clipps and actually avgs less apg, then he goes down.
"rc - ok his assist numbers are amazing, but what does that matter if your team sucks. " In the NBA where 16 teams makes the playoffs your team sucks if you don't make the playoffs. Granted Cleveland sucks harder than we do but not making the playoffs in 3 years does not make us even an average team. It still amazes me how everyone can say we have such good talent in one threat (read the threads about Mo T and KT and see all their supporters, or the threads at the beginning of the season last year when people were saying Cato was a top 10 center, and how Griff was the best player in the draft, and Cat is unstoppable one-on-one) but then when it comes to defending the Franchise, all of a sudden the rest of our team sucks and can't make a shot. Oh well Walt Williams and Glen Rice, before the came here were both deadly marksmen. Granted the end of his first year Walt got hot but last year (when these guys played) neither one lit it up. It is a prime example of players who need to have their feet set to get off good shots and for whatever reason it worked in other cities, but not here. I suppose the next excuse is the guys can't only shoot but they also can't catch passes. No doubt Franchise is a good player (great stats witht eh potential to be a great player), but not a good PG, yet.
Like Big M, I am in complete agreement with RC's ranking if you put Davis and SF in the 3/4 slots and Miller in the 5th. The former are just more difficult on a defense because they combine range with driving ability. Although also regarding RC's list based on results and leadership I would have to add I think JK is clearly the #1, solidly ahead of GP at this point. 4chuckie, I for one have been adamant that our front court has been solidly the worst in the entire league last year. In short I think there is a lot more underestimation of how good our backcourt is, and overestimation of the talent and skill of our front court players over the last 2 years. You put ANY other starting pair of guards on the Rockets last year and we are fighting with the Bulls and Warriors to be the worst team in the league. The fact the last 2 years when SF has been healthy and played we are only a little under 500--far better than Miller who also benefits from the weaker conference has to be attributed to something--and I don't think it has been the play of Cato, Hakeem 2 years ago, MoT, KT, Walt, or Mooch, though at times some of them have hit big shots or finished plays set up by our starting backcourt. Last year we more or less didn't have frontcourt guys who could finish basic plays NBA guys need to make with efficiency, I would never fault SF or CM for shooting a little extra and taking some tough shots because of it. Now if in the next years guys (especially Ming, MoT, Nachbar, EG, KT) prove to be able to finish plays and don't get the rock when in a position to deliver, then SF decision making as a true PG can be questioned. Same deal happened with Bibby. The year before playing with crap in his front line he was thought of me first, poor shot selection, selfish PG (devalued) traded for the real thing in JW, last year with a top 2 front line he is Mr Clutch and some even put him ahead of SF in this thread (overvalued). IMO provided SF shows fine overall health if he were to hit the FA market him or Davis would be the most sought after PGs--that should be a pretty good indication of the respect of his basketball ability around the league. As for Walt and Rice, they were not exactly tearing it up before they got to the Rockets, nor for Walt (Rice is totally an unknown) did his productivity drop playing with our guards. Walt (one of our few consistent front line shooters over the last couple of years) was passed the rock a lot by SF.
Ok, since it seems a couple guys think SF is a better PG than AM, I will be open to changing my list. But, I just don't know how someone could get so many assists on such a bad team.(bad support,not necessarily bad team.) I don't watch the Cavs, so if someone could tell me how he gets so many assists and it isn't a great way, I'll see that I am wrong. But saying that the Cavs have gotten worse may not be his fault. The Rockets haven't made the playoffs in the 3 years SF had been PG. BTW THIS PAINS ME TO SAY THAT, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT'S IS NOT HIS FAULT! But the same could be said for the Cavs. I don't know much about their team, so maybe the rest of the team has given up while Andre hasn't. But like I said, if someone could tell explain to me the Cavs offense, or why he gets high assists, I'll change the two in my mind. BTW, like I said earlier, I think SF is a TON better than AM. I'd give him MVP instead of AM because he is a better player. JMO though.
RC Cola, I'm no expert, but this is what I've heard. Murray and Person are two EXCELLENT spot up shooters. The Cavs system was designed around Murray and Person coming off screens to hit open shots. So basically, Miller just had to feed them the ball after someone has put up a screen. The Cavs needed more scoring from Miller, and they didn't get it. While for Steve, 7 assists is adequate when you ARE the main option on offense, and the next option gets his points through endless ISO plays. Needless to say, ISO's don't get assists, but spot up shooters rack em up for their PG's.
