On the list above, about 1/2 the players did it with their original teams. I am riding with TheFreak on this matter. Mango
Yes, but they have superstar like talent. If Kobe were on his own team, I think he'd score like 28 per game... I'm not sure that he doesn't almost already equal shaq in value. Against Portland, Kobe looked unstoppable, while Shaq was very mortal. Rice carried a team for years... whether or not you think that they're putting up #'s w/Shaq... they're still superstars.
Sorry Mango, but Im still inclined to disagree. In football its different. You hope, no check that, expect to get some starters up till around the 4th or sometimes 5th round. Draft value in the NFL is much much higher being that you have to support 22 offensive and defensive positions, not to mention Kickers, Punters, special teams players, and Punt/Kick returners. In basketball, they erased all those drafting rounds for a reason. Cutting it down to two rounds. If you look at all those players who are picked after 10, very, very few make an impact at all. Think about it like this. 20 players chosen (since there is about 30 teams) and how many did you see that I mentioned? Very, very few. None that lead teams to championships. So unlike football, where you can draft a Joe Montana in the 4th round. Or a Terrell Davis in the 4th round, or even a Randy Moss 17th. Basketball just doesn't produce the number of sheer blockbuster players after the 10th pick. So Ill reiterate. I can't imagine any GM who would trade a 12,14, and 16 pick for a top 3 pick. Firstly they'd be lucky if two even made the team, secondly an impact player is much better to have than 2 role players. Who would you of taken a chance on if you were drafting? Getting Either Francis, or Odom... Or getting a Drew, Dickerson, and a Turkan?
Dreamshake, Sure you take, Odom or Francis over the trio. The point TheFreak is making is that we already have a stud in Francis and it is not necessarily a must have to get a second stud (top 3, top 5, etc) to get to the promised land. In the drafts from 1990 forward, I found roughly 4 high draft choices that won rings. Out of those, Duncan was the only true stud. The others were supporting/role players. ------------------------------------------------------------------- LA Boston Philly Detroit Chicago Houston San Antonio Aren't those the teams that have won championships over the past 20 years? It helped that Magic had Worthy, B Scott, KAJ, but it was still his team. Bird had McHale. What player did you think of when you thought of the Celtics? Moses had a strong crew of B Jones, Toney, Dr J. It was still considered Moses's team. Jordan had a strong supporting cast, but no other superstars. Sure Pip's name is on your fingertips, but he is by no strech of the imagination a dominant superstar. Dream had OT the first championship. K Smith in a supporting role for both seasons. In case a point is raised about the dominance of Boston, LA, Chicago keeping other teams from getting rings, I ran through the draft lists again looking for top ten players who made it to the NBA finals, but lost. 1979 x 1980 x 1981 x 1982 x 1983 Sampson McCray 1984 Barkley 1985 Ewing Schrempf 1986 x 1987 x 1988 Charles Smith 1989 x 1990 Payton Dennis Scott 1991 Larry Johson 1992 Shaq 1993 Penny 1994 x 1995 x 1996 Camby 1997 x 1998 x If you see a name that was missed, submit it and I will cheerfully insert it. I kept seeing many teams showing drafting top ten players and coming back again and again in following years. Poor management? Poor analysis of talent? Probably, but I would more likely attribute it to the lack of true SUPERSTARS in the NBA. Houston has a potential one in Francis and should be thankful of it. Yes, another quality player or two would always be helpful, but I don't see it as an absolute must as some do on this BBS Mango [This message has been edited by Mango (edited April 25, 2001).]
Im not debating the fact that there is a place for role players on a team. My point is that when drafting, why on earth would you not give yourself a tandem like you pointed out (Jordan had Pippen, Magic had Kareem) for 3 role players??? It shouldn't happen, as testimony to fact that the Rox did have 3 1st rounders 2 years ago, and Im sure they thought about trading them to move up because they already had a pretty set roster, yet there was no talk of getting a higher pick for the 3 picks. So in retrospect: 1. A high pick doesn't assure you of a title, but considering the history, lower picks are a far worse scenario. 2. Again, I still havent heard of a 10+ player in the last 30 years leading his team to a title 3. I do realize that a top 3 pick doenst assure yourself of not getting a bust. But if you look at how few solid yearly contributors there are drafted after 10 it doesn't make sense to not just save your top 3 pick. 4. I understand what Freak is saying about role players, but still would you rather have Vince Carter and Francis, or Vince Carter and 2 maybe 3 role players make your team, and if you was lucky one of them produced decent numbers? Even at the beginning of the year, No one could truely say that Francis wouldn't be a bust. But Id still take a good chance on a kid like Francis over 3 hope to make the team chances in the middle rounds.
Dreamshake, I agree that it is better to have talent because it is something that will always be there. Orlando was impressive with hustle in the preseason and the early part of the season. Now the lack of talent is showing and they are starting to sink. I can't think of any 10+ player leading their team either. A research project for another night. Do you see another potential superstar (or near superstar) in the 2000 draft? I don't know if it is a lack of talent or something else, but it seems current teams are unable to load up quality rosters like Boston and LA did in the 80's . Portland has a deep team, but betting that R Wallace will lead them to the finals is not a sure thing. The one thing that stands out after looking over the 20 years of draft history is that having one true superstar (dominant player) gets you to the winner's circle. A team of equals does not win. I would gladly take a V Carter, K Garnett or A McDyess. But I won't sit here moaning that someone of that caliber is a must have either. Dallas had the three J's and what do they have to show for it? Orlando had Shaq, Penny and H Grant just 5 years ago and now they are starting over. By the way, the Rockets have another top 10 player in addition to Dream and Francis. Walt was drafted #7 in 1992. Dreamshake, always enjoy discussions with you . Mango [This message has been edited by Mango (edited January 24, 2000).]
You know, I'm becomeing more and more impressed w/Kenyon Martin... I know that Cato and Thomas are both decent players, but we could do something similar to 97, when we had Dream, Barkley, and Willis. Or we could use one of them as trade bait for a SF.
haven, Sounds good, but if he looks appealing to peoplein Houston, he probably is also appealing to fans in other cities with lottery draft choices in 2000 Tank to get more balls in the hopper to get Martin? No. Trade a player to get draft choices swapped? If K Martin turns out to be the clearcut #1, it will be an extremely high ransom to get the #1 spot. If the other team is even interested in doing it. Mango
Mango...Indeed it is always a pleasure. On your two examples though. Dallas has a history of bad player exchange and drafting. Actually I believe they made the right choices with those three, but was way too impatient. Jamal was averaging something like 25, I believe JJ was over 23, when Kidd came to town. If they would of waited just 2 short years, they might actually have a team to talk about again. I still believe Jamal has skills, and if he would of been the go to guy, may of been a constant all star. Jackson just cant seem to get on a team where he is the clear cut starter at the shooting guard spot. Rider has eclipsed him at his last two jobs in Portland and Atlanta. And we all know of the exploits of Kidd. Orlando was going to be a force to reckon with for a long time. Lets not forget that the team that the Rox swept were all prepubecent kids, who had beaten a Michael Jordaned Bulls team (no matter what anyone says, Jordan wasn't rusty by playoff time anymore. You don't score 55 on the Knicks and claim rustiness.) Then Shaq bolted in heated press releases of bitterness between him and Penny. Coaching fiascos, player uprisings, constant injury to Penny, ended up costing that team probably many more trips to the title game. Anyways. Its been fun with all the pondering going on in here lately.
mango: I was referring to the original question on this post. Would you trade 3 1st round draft choices to get the top pick? Well, in this draft, I'd trade 12, 14, 16 to get Martin, easily.
