Political Lobby Systems....the Chink in the US Armor?

for the record AMC had given Lieberman some award for helping Muslims in the political arena. so this 'all muslims hate all jews' is crap. yet that doesn't mean i support israel in anyway shape or form.

 

AHA! A perfect time to pull out my favorite phrase! Corelation is not causation!. Because there is a corelation between arabs and muslims, as well as a corelation between arabs and anti-semites, the subject has infered causation. The same holds true for Jews, Isralis and anti-arab sentiment. Alas, Corelation isn't causation! Unfortunately, I believe that even some of those involved seem to miss this point.

The people the Arabs should blame is the British. As in India, Israel is the direct result of Brittian's attempts to get out of Imperialism. But this all started as a 'minor' problem, because the Brittish set up two states "Israel" and "Palestine".

The funny thing is, the Arab states of Syria, Saudia Arabia, and Egypt are directly responsible for the lack of a Palestinian state! Once the UN's partiton plan was put into effect there were two states in Palastine/Israel. The major Arab states decided to play big bully, and attacked by way of Palestine. OOPS. The Arabs were driven back and the Israelies "Did unto others as the Arabs would've done unto them."

Every expansion of Israeli borders has been the direct result of an assault on Israel by an Arab nation. This provides me with a wonderfull sense of 'devine irony'.

By the way, in the first series of wars, the US didn't provide any military support for Israel. But Soviet support of Arab states, as well as a twinge of the same WWII/Nazi guilt that brought on the UN resolutions, caused by the Arab desires to eradicate Israel, caused the US to first enter as a mediator, later moving to supporter. The Arab intractability is a direct cause of US support for Israel (push me, I'll push back...). Your problem is made worse by your own singlemindedness.

 

So let me get this straight, just because he said something racist and he happened to be Jewish, ALL Jewish people are racist? I've seen black AND white people say racist things, with that logic then ALL black and white people are racist! From my experience, if someone has a prejudice against a race of people they'll take something that one or two of those people of that race say and run with it. People need to understand that just because a couple of people have an opinion about something you can't judge an entire race because of it.

 

I don't think that being Jewish means racist, but perhaps glynch simply meant it's a hard topic to argue about with Jewish-Americans.

My 2nd favorite professor at BC was Jewish. We've developed a friendship that exists outside of school, and I look at the guy as something of a mentor. But I can't talk with him about the Israel-Palestine conflict. He's a brilliant man, and isn't even particularly Orthodox, but on that subject, he's completely irrational.

Perhaps that's all glynch mentioned. Not all Jews are Zionists, but I always hesitate to breach the subject with them now. And being a political science major, it's something I'd normally talk about with friends if we're talking politics.

 

I agree that the special interest nature of our government is a huge problem, but not much with Khan's specifics regarding the ME.

I don't think the primary reason we support Isreal is because there are a lot of Jewish people there and we have a lot of Jewish poeple in our government. We also supported Kuwait, and historically have often had pretty strong ties to Saudi (have had military bases for many years and felt there leaders would comply with our wished). The #1 reason we support Isreal and these other ME countires is because these countries had been viewed as predictable and controllable--in their protection of free flowing oil to us. We would give a rats behind about Middle East political, ethnic and religious factions if it wasn't for the oil there. Thus if you want to link special interests to middle east policies and the current violent actions, I think you will be much more persuasive talking about GM, Ford, Exxon, Moble or even some foreign companies and their US extensions (Shell). They are far more organized and powerful than any loose "Jewish lobby". As discussed there are vast differences in attitudes about Isreal-related policies within the Jewish community. For example, I doubt Greenspan cares too much about Zionism, he does care about the flow of money and the health of our national productivity however.

 

Haven, that is all I'm saying. Everyone I know who likes to argue politics says it is virtually impossible to do so with Jewish people about Israel unless you have almost their exact position.

I started the conversation saying that I thought they Royal Family in Saudi is corrupt and undemocratic and losing popularity among ordinary Saudis . and I don't think we should support them blindly; that the Talibanism is just an offshoot of the radical islam of Saudi Arabia.

He then brought up that he supported Saudi since it supports Israel. I immediately said I support the right of Israel to exist but that I wasn't necessarily talking about Israel.

As has happened on this board, he immediately proudly asked the table who was the only democracy in the Middle East. Later he objected strongly to allowing a democracy in Saudi or any other Arab country if it led to them being less supportive of Israel. " Besides they don't believe in democracy." When the topic shifted to redeveloping Afghanistan after the War he objected as it wouldn't do any good. Similarly with secular education in Pakistan. it wouldn't do any good. They wouldn't benefit from it because of the way they are etc.

Fortunatley before it got totally out of hand we managed to switch to talking about computer viruses.

Later other friends who were present and not as political told me "just be quiet, why get upset? it's just typical Jewish paranoia."

For years I've been silent on the issue with Jewish people after losing a Jewish friend in the past over the issue , but I don't think it is time to keep letting this slide. Painful as it is, I believe it is time for those of us who are not Jewish or Arab/Muslim to quit being bullied and speak up.

 

though this is a complete tangent...

did anyone see frontline two weeks ago on these current issues? they had prince bandar who is i believe the ambassador to US from saudi..and he said about corruption charges against the saud family 'we didn't invent corruption the romans did it...so what!'....and that was after he said that the saudi government spend 400 billion in the past 30 years to build saudi arabia and even if they only needed 350 billion that means they 'only' took 50 billion to their pockets.

after hearing that i had three thoughts. one i can't believe a person could have the nerve to say such things. two at least he doesn't sit behind political rhetorical crap. and three this proves its a monarchy. in a democracy his head would roll.

 

glynch,

You have a very strong tendency to try to drop other people in your predefined buckets. Statements such as 'it is virtually impossible to do so with XXXX people' are offensive and generally indicate simple-mindedness. Why do you continue to make such statements?