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Political experts let me know about healthcare

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rhester, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    Just read this on Yahoo.

    Could all you Democrats and Republicans please debate this article for a few minutes, I wish I knew more about this issue.

    Thanks link

    5 Freedoms You'd Lose in Health Care Reform
    by Shawn Tully
    Monday, July 27, 2009

    If you read the fine print in the Congressional plans, you'll find that a lot of cherished aspects of the current system would disappear.
    In promoting his health-care agenda, President Obama has repeatedly reassured Americans that they can keep their existing health plans -- and that the benefits and access they prize will be enhanced through reform.
    A close reading of the two main bills, one backed by Democrats in the House and the other issued by Sen. Edward Kennedy's Health committee, contradict the President's assurances. To be sure, it isn't easy to comb through their 2,000 pages of tortured legal language. But page by page, the bills reveal a web of restrictions, fines, and mandates that would radically change your health-care coverage.
    If you prize choosing your own cardiologist or urologist under your company's Preferred Provider Organization plan (PPO), if your employer rewards your non-smoking, healthy lifestyle with reduced premiums, if you love the bargain Health Savings Account (HSA) that insures you just for the essentials, or if you simply take comfort in the freedom to spend your own money for a policy that covers the newest drugs and diagnostic tests -- you may be shocked to learn that you could lose all of those good things under the rules proposed in the two bills that herald a health-care revolution.
    In short, the Obama platform would mandate extremely full, expensive, and highly subsidized coverage -- including a lot of benefits people would never pay for with their own money -- but deliver it through a highly restrictive, HMO-style plan that will determine what care and tests you can and can't have. It's a revolution, all right, but in the wrong direction.
    Let's explore the five freedoms that Americans would lose under Obamacare:

    1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan
    The bills in both houses require that Americans purchase insurance through "qualified" plans offered by health-care "exchanges" that would be set up in each state. The rub is that the plans can't really compete based on what they offer. The reason: The federal government will impose a minimum list of benefits that each plan is required to offer.
    Today, many states require these "standard benefits packages" -- and they're a major cause for the rise in health-care costs. Every group, from chiropractors to alcohol-abuse counselors, do lobbying to get included. Connecticut, for example, requires reimbursement for hair transplants, hearing aids, and in vitro fertilization.
    The Senate bill would require coverage for prescription drugs, mental-health benefits, and substance-abuse services. It also requires policies to insure "children" until the age of 26. That's just the starting list. The bills would allow the Department of Health and Human Services to add to the list of required benefits, based on recommendations from a committee of experts. Americans, therefore, wouldn't even know what's in their plans and what they're required to pay for, directly or indirectly, until after the bills become law.

    2. Freedom to be rewarded for healthy living, or pay your real costs
    As with the previous example, the Obama plan enshrines into federal law one of the worst features of state legislation: community rating. Eleven states, ranging from New York to Oregon, have some form of community rating. In its purest form, community rating requires that all patients pay the same rates for their level of coverage regardless of their age or medical condition.
    Americans with pre-existing conditions need subsidies under any plan, but community rating is a dubious way to bring fairness to health care. The reason is twofold: First, it forces young people, who typically have lower incomes than older workers, to pay far more than their actual cost, and gives older workers, who can afford to pay more, a big discount. The state laws gouging the young are a major reason so many of them have joined the ranks of uninsured.
    Under the Senate plan, insurers would be barred from charging any more than twice as much for one patient vs. any other patient with the same coverage. So if a 20-year-old who costs just $800 a year to insure is forced to pay $2,500, a 62-year-old who costs $7,500 would pay no more than $5,000.
    Second, the bills would ban insurers from charging differing premiums based on the health of their customers. Again, that's understandable for folks with diabetes or cancer. But the bills would bar rewarding people who pursue a healthy lifestyle of exercise or a cholesterol-conscious diet. That's hardly a formula for lower costs. It's as if car insurers had to charge the same rates to safe drivers as to chronic speeders with a history of accidents.

    3. Freedom to choose high-deductible coverage
    The bills threaten to eliminate the one part of the market truly driven by consumers spending their own money. That's what makes a market, and health care needs more of it, not less.
    Hundreds of companies now offer Health Savings Accounts to about 5 million employees. Those workers deposit tax-free money in the accounts and get a matching contribution from their employer. They can use the funds to buy a high-deductible plan -- say for major medical costs over $12,000. Preventive care is reimbursed, but patients pay all other routine doctor visits and tests with their own money from the HSA account. As a result, HSA users are far more cost-conscious than customers who are reimbursed for the majority of their care.
    The bills seriously endanger the trend toward consumer-driven care in general. By requiring minimum packages, they would prevent patients from choosing stripped-down plans that cover only major medical expenses. "The government could set extremely low deductibles that would eliminate HSAs," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market research group. "And they could do it after the bills are passed."

    4. Freedom to keep your existing plan
    This is the freedom that the President keeps emphasizing. Yet the bills appear to say otherwise. It's worth diving into the weeds -- the territory where most pundits and politicians don't seem to have ventured.
    The legislation divides the insured into two main groups, and those two groups are treated differently with respect to their current plans. The first are employees covered by the Employee Retirement Security Act of 1974. ERISA regulates companies that are self-insured, meaning they pay claims out of their cash flow, and don't have real insurance. Those are the GEs and Time Warners and most other big companies.
    The House bill states that employees covered by ERISA plans are "grandfathered." Under ERISA, the plans can do pretty much what they want -- they're exempt from standard packages and community rating and can reward employees for healthy lifestyles even in restrictive states.
    But read on.
    The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.
    The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.
    The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.

    5. Freedom to choose your doctors
    The Senate bill requires that Americans buying through the exchanges -- and as we've seen, that will soon be most Americans -- must get their care through something called "medical home." Medical home is similar to an HMO. You're assigned a primary care doctor, and the doctor controls your access to specialists. The primary care physicians will decide which services, like MRIs and other diagnostic scans, are best for you, and will decide when you really need to see a cardiologists or orthopedists.
    Under the proposals, the gatekeepers would theoretically guide patients to tests and treatments that have proved most cost-effective. The danger is that doctors will be financially rewarded for denying care, as were HMO physicians more than a decade ago. It was consumer outrage over despotic gatekeepers that made the HMOs so unpopular, and killed what was billed as the solution to America's health-care cost explosion.
    The bills do not specifically rule out fee-for-service plans as options to be offered through the exchanges. But remember, those plans -- if they exist -- would be barred from charging sick or elderly patients more than young and healthy ones. So patients would be inclined to game the system, staying in the HMO while they're healthy and switching to fee-for-service when they become seriously ill. "That would kill fee-for-service in a hurry," says Goodman.
    In reality, the flexible, employer-based plans that now dominate the landscape, and that Americans so cherish, could disappear far faster than the 5 year "grace period" that's barely being discussed.
    Companies would have the option of paying an 8% payroll tax into a fund that pays for coverage for Americans who aren't covered by their employers. It won't happen right away -- large companies must wait a couple of years before they opt out. But it will happen, since it's likely that the tax will rise a lot more slowly than corporate health-care costs, especially since they'll be lobbying Washington to keep the tax under control in the righteous name of job creation.
    The best solution is to move to a let-freedom-ring regime of high deductibles, no community rating, no standard benefits, and cross-state shopping for bargains (another market-based reform that's strictly taboo in the bills). I'll propose my own solution in another piece soon on Fortune.com. For now, we suffer with a flawed health-care system, but we still have our Five Freedoms. Call them the Five Endangered Freedoms.

    Copyrighted, Fortune. All rights reserved.
     
    #1 rhester, Jul 28, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2009
    1 person likes this.
  2. bnb

    bnb Contributing Member

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    I don't see how you would lose any of those freedoms unless you ban private insurance or doctors providing services outside of the Gov't plan.

    Except the 'freedom' to have high deductibles, i suppose, or to pay the 'real' costs -- which is the essence of all insurance.

    You could argue, i guess, that it's not necessary, or too costly -- but I can't see why services would decrease. If there's currently a demand, why would doctors, the med industry and the insurance companies stop offering a service because the gov plan won't cover it (esp given the gov plan doesn't currently exist so doesn't currently cover it anyways?).
     
  3. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    the freedom to paying high deductables is for young people who are unlikely to be sick. They can get high deductable plan and pay less for coverage.

    You cannot have this on universal plan because those people need to subsidize the others.


    I hope a bipartisan plan makes it. There are many ways to clean the house before the public option. The public option is a easy and slow way to convert to single payer. Probably the best way, but if you do not want single payer, you do not want public option.
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Who has all those freedoms now? I sure don't.

    1. Definitely don't have.
    2. I rarely go to the doctor unless it's serious, i am in good health, and have no dependents so I pretty much subsidize every sick man, woman and child on my plan. That's a feature of insurance...not of Marxism.
    3. Definitely don't have this freedom now.
    4. Freedom to keep what you have - uh, well I can't really change what I have given the dearth of options offered now, nor do I care to, so I have a hard time discussing this as a "freedom". It's like saying "Freedom to stay handcuffed to your chair"
    5. I guess this one, but really I don't have complete freedom now, it's mostly in network, or some nightmarish annoying reimbursement process for out of network which i would never bother with.
     
  5. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SamFisher again.
     
  6. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    I'm a benefits manager and deal with health plans extensively but I haven't been up on the healthcare legislation.

    Customization of plans is currently critical to control of costs. In the state of TX rates are regulated by the state, the only thing we actually shop at our company is admin service and customization of the plan to get the most for the $$$.

    Demographics (age/gender/etc) is another huge cost issue regardless of who provides coverage there are certain demographics that greatly influence costs, for instance if you have a disproportionate number of elderly or women at child bearing age it has a big impact on your rating and $$$ premiums

    The more premium $$$ are leveled the more costs are increased. At this time a healthy man or woman non smoker would be able to be covered for far less than an elderly man with a pre-exist- costs tend to follow worst case so the more premiums are leveled the costs rise disproportionately

    Not that all that matters as much as the HMO provisions.

    The HMO's laws of the '70s basically started the downfall of healthcare to begin with. Once the federal government started regulations with the HMO act of 1973 pretty much federal control became inevitable.

    I would just like to understand more about the plan. I am certain we are going to get some kind of new regulation.

    I hope it isn't an 'HMO' type solution.
     
  7. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    I know, right? And to think I had given him reputation for one of his stupid jokes.

    rhester, agree with Sam. I really don't experience the "freedoms" your article there talks about.

    My employer and I pay a whole lot of money every year on my behalf, into a big insurance plan, and like Sam, as I'm very healthy (and I am blessed in that way, no big complaints), I know I'm just subsidizing other people.

    When I was younger, I didn't have an employer-covered plan, and I got my own high-deductible insurance.* Now, that's not an option, as far as I can tell, and since I have a mortgage, etc, and commitments to my wife, I don't feel like that's an option anymore anyway.

    * = I later learned I was on a scam plan that would not have covered me (in the fine print) for more than one month if I'd become catastrophically ill. So, there's a "freedom" that is totally disturbing, in retrospect, and some young people find this out the very hard way.
     
  8. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    You don't have the option to purchase a plan with a higher deductible? I can call State Farm right now and get health insurance through them and pay different prices according to the deductible.

    Same thing with my insurance through my job. I can opt for a higher deductible and pay less.
     
  9. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    I don't think so, we get offered one plan here via work, it's take it or leave it. I guess i could opt out and buy my own with a higher deductible.
     
  10. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    We had one, but they stopped offering it two years ago.
     
  11. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    These are very good points and certainly need to be fixed.

    I didn't have any insurance for a long time, paid for 3 children to be born and raised out of my pocket, probably over $40,000.00 to Dr. and Hospitals in my lifetime (before insurance I have now)

    I just don't trust politics and want to know if the article was on track.

    I don't have a clue if it is or not, but I am not surprised either way.

    I am not expecting much good to come out of Washington DC and haven't had that expectation since I voted for McGovern ;)
     
  12. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    So really the only ones you don't have are 1 and 3. I have all 5 -- so do many many Americans, which is why Obamacare scares the heck out of them. This Administration hasn't proven that they can run a darn thing -- just look at the $2 trillion budget deficit. Why are some of you so eager to turn healthcare over to this group of failures? I'm not -- and apparently neither are many in the Democratic party.
     
  13. Pizza_Da_Hut

    Pizza_Da_Hut I put on pants for this?

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    Republicans before the war: We must sacrifice certain freedoms in order to maintain our security. Nothing is more important than one's safety.

    Republicans before this bill: We as Americans must not sacrifice certain freedoms just because some of us will be safer, healthier, and live longer.

    Double speak no? Orwell would be proud, or sad?

    I'm not saying liberals don't do this, far from it, but it's just hilarious pointing out that we would rather go trillions in debt to fight against people who didn't start a war with us (Iraq) than to provide the certain necessities of staying alive in our own country. You have a higher probability of dieing of cancer and heart disease than a terrorist attack, yet, lets blow money on people who are not terrorists and bring democracy to an other stable (yet still horrific) region. It boggles my mind.

    Sam does the best job of pointing this out, if you don't have healthcare in first place, you already have none of these freedoms.
     
  14. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    A good question to ask is how many of these freedoms would be lost by how many folks. I could definitely be affected by 1, 3, 4 and 5. Personally, I doubt I would be affected by number 2, but it's possible if it is more implicit than explicit.

    For example, my company's insurance rates tend to rise and fall depending upon how much the employees use during any given year. I suspect that could implicitly affect me, but without all the details and not knowing a whole lot about the insurance industry, I couldn't say for sure.
     
  15. Pizza_Da_Hut

    Pizza_Da_Hut I put on pants for this?

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    I know right? Obama hasn't gone to Crawford, Texas once to address the central issues there. See, George was on top of Crawford, he knew that if Crawford went to ish so goes the Nation. That man was a great man. *sniff*
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    I should have known better

    What am I thinking, I really wanted to know if this article is accurate without doing the research myself.

    D&D- a lame Dem vs Rep spitting contest


    I admit I know 'zero' about ObamaCare or whatever it is.

    I don't care if it is good or bad, just want to know something of the substance.

    I guess I can go find the 2000 page bill and read it...







    not :D
     
  17. uolj

    uolj Member

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    I just saw this mentioned on another forum so I might as well copy and paste my thoughts from there...


    1. This doesn't sound like a bad thing. It sounds like they are trying to ensure that all the important things are covered by the plans available to the people. Sure, there could be situations where something we consider frivolous gets in (like hair transplants), but I'd rather have that then have something I consider extremely important (mental health benefits) be left out of my employer's health care plan.

    2. How else can you pay for the people with pre-existing conditions? Republicans and Democrats agree that reform should include the requirement that people not be denied coverage for that reason, so in order to pay for that you are going to have to make the healthy put in more than they get out of the system. My understanding is that there are other features to incentivize healthy living.

    3. I don't know the details, but I think I would agree with this concern. I can't think of a good reason to not allow a high-deductible plan as an option. I don't care if HSA's go away or not, though. If you're getting some other benefit in exchange, then who cares?

    4. I don't understand why this is a problem. The point is that the health care system is being reformed. Of course some people are happy with their current setup, but if you are reforming the system then some things have to change. The emphasis should be on making the new plans attractive to individuals and businesses so that people who like their current plan will like their new plan. I'd assume that in most cases that is what will happen.

    5. I might share this concern as well, although I'm curious what the rationale is behind such a setup. I assume it has to do in part with minimizing the use of duplicate and/or unnecessary tests and procedures. However, I would hope that strong measures would be put into place to avoid having doctors avoid necessary or potentially helpful tests. I'd rather error on the side have trying something that might cure me than saving money.
     
  18. Pizza_Da_Hut

    Pizza_Da_Hut I put on pants for this?

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    That means 18% of this country would agree, they don't have these freedoms either. That's not a small minority mind you, and with unemployment rising, that number only grows...
     
  19. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Actually, they have a lot of these "freedoms" now if they were able to pay for health insurance. They could choose a plan and pay according to deductible. They could choose a plan where they could make sure they get the doctor of their choice. They could choose an "a la carte" plan.

    They either cannot afford (or justify the exepense of) health insurance or choose not to purchase.
     
  20. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    I've said before that I don't think I'll have freedom of choice because I don't really have that now.

    The system is designed for you to obtain healthcare through an employer, and punish those who don't by taxation. So I get lumped into a group plan that doesn't meet my wants, and I have only used during an eye exam so I could get new glasses. I would rather have no plan and get $300/month extra in pay, but thats not really a choice for me.
     

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