It makes me sad to see the Public School System turned in the battle ground so many times over arguments between groups of people over Religion and other things.
I never could figure out the part about "the pizza passing understander" when i was a kid in sunday school. ... yes, i figured it out later.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof I'm still trying to figure out how saying "One Nation, under God" attempts to establish religion? What religion? I don't particularly like my tax dollars going towards abortion. But guess what...I live in Austin, and that's what Austin wants my tax dollars to fund. If the majority of the people in the United States want public schools saying the pledge, then schools that are payed for by those same people should start their day by saying the pledge. I never even stood up for the pledge in high school anyway....too busy talking or studying for some test I didn't study for the night before. This guy is a freaking idiot for putting his daughter through this crap. Quit making this guy out to be some kind of hero. He's definitely causing her more harm than good.
My source is an interview that the plaintiff gave on Fox News Channel the day after the decision. I said wellfare, not unemployment. There is a difference. In order to file a lawsuit, there has to be an injury in fact. You can't just say that you are offended. YOUR rights have to specifically be infringed by a specific act. His case was that his daughter was being forced to say the pledge against her will. Now it turns out that his whole case was a fraud. Swearing to "facts" in a petition that are later found to be false constitutes perjury. Oh I don't know....let's see...book deals, a fee for interviews, and endless publicity to get his name seen.
DaDakota: If recreational drugs were government-regulated and prescribed, there wouldn't be any drug czars; moreover, the violence and crime on 'the streets', as you put it, would drop exponentially. Frankly, I never had trouble getting anything I wanted to take while I was in Texas. It's like a drug cornucopia there. Your war is an unmitigated failure and, as rimmy says, there are some US government agencies happy to ignore said war (say, by introducing crack to the inner cities) when it suits them... No, actually there isn't. It's all government-regulated, tax funded wealth redistribution. AFDC (or whatever it's called now), unemployment insurance, Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, disability, tax breaks for corporations, education funding, road paving... it's all the same. It's just the societal attitudes to the people receiving it that vary.
actually, there is a difference...particularly in the context of the conversation this arose in. no matter your thoughts on the matter, there are very distinct ways to qualify for unemployment benefits. that was more in line with what these two were talking about. please don't tell us that road paving and wealth redistribution are the same...road paving is left to governments simply because the economic barrier to building public roads does not provide an incentive for private corporations to do it, for the most part. it has absolutely nothing to do with the redistribution of wealth...neither does education funding for that matter. if my property tax dollars go into the schools my kids grow up in, that ain't redistribution. there is a real distinction between basic government expenditures and the redistribution of wealth.
Maybe if we all cut out 'under god' our children can leave school a second earlier to get home sooner so that they can waste time like us on the bbs or playing Playstation. I don't know what all of the fus is, myself. I was repressed just fine w/ talk of god 24/7 and if anything it just pushed me to something a little bit more tangible... rocks, plants, animals, isotopes, blah blah blah. BTW MadMax, it seems like you're insinuating that Catholics or people of the Eastern Orthodox faith aren't Christian again. I have heard other fundamentalists make those claims before, but they did so in a very harmful manner, imo. Are you duplicating those efforts? I might add, that sheez there are a lot of politics in religion. Do you listen to this book? Do you listen to this book? Did your mommy tell you to believe this way or this way? Chaos. I'd mention an aside about a friend that's joining the predominantly local faith in my community just to get a date or two... but that would also point out another one of my beliefs... about how it's allllllllllllllllll mating effort. Mmmmm... hhmmm.. mating effort. Chimpanzee politics, but we have a mental eminence and can wag our tongues. Whoa.
http://www.satirewire.com/news/june02/pledge.shtml San Francisco (SatireWire.com) — A U.S. federal appeals court ruled Wednesday that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is unconstitutional because it contains the phrase "under God," a decision blasted by Democrats, Republicans, and brand managers who say the United States is making a grave mistake in dropping its principal sponsor. "Over the years, the U.S. under God has been a great draw for the major players — Einstein, Solzhenitsyn, John Lennon," said government marketing analyst Gil Treacle. "Without God's brand recognition and infinite marketing powers, you risk losing the marquee names to competitors. Then the networks don't renew, the money dries up, the fans revolt, and the next thing you know, you're Argentina." The U.S. Justice Department, assigned the difficult task of finding a replacement, said it has already been in contact with several entities ("One nation, but 24,000 Starbucks") interested in having their brands associated with America. Until an agreement is reached, however, the U.S. will advertise the position by replacing the phrase "One nation, under God," with "One nation, (sponsorship opportunities available)." While the words "under God" were only added to the Pledge by Congress in 1954, God has been the title patron of the United States since its founding in 1776, and the God name adorns everything from U.S. currency to the phrase "So help me God" used to swear in the President. The three-judge panel who voted to sever that 226-year relationship has come under heavy fire, but many have defended the decision, saying it is wrong to force religion on anyone. "The phrase 'under God' clearly violates the First Amendment's separation of church and state," said McDonald's CEO Jack Greenberg. "However, there is nothing in the Constitution that separates chicken and state, which is why we're proposing, 'One nation, six chicken McNuggets and a medium Coke, all for $1.99.'" A handful of Americans, however, has insisted the United States can get along just fine without a primary sponsor. Their suggestion that the Pledge phrase be regularly updated to reflect the national condition, however, has so far attracted little interest, as a CNN/Gallup poll found only 10 percent of respondents would feel comfortable reciting "One nation, under indictment." Europeans, meanwhile, seemed to be confused by the entire episode. "I don't understand. I always thought it was 'One nation, we are God,'" said British Prime Minister Tony Blair. "Oh my, I've been worshipping them for nothing." God, in various forms, currently supports most nations, with the exception of officially atheist China and Vietnam, and the Netherlands, which hasn't been told yet but is in for a nasty shock tomorrow.
I don't see where he insinuated anything of the kind. I am Catholic and take my faith very seriously. MadMax is a good friend of mine, and he has never come close to insinuating that Catholics are not Christians. To do so would be stupid, and MadMax is not a stupid guy. Just wanted to clear that up...
Sorry refman if I misunderstood MadMax. He and I certainly disagree on a number of issues, but I hold him no ill will. My confusion lay in the quote: Upon having read that, I was afraid MadMax was drawing the line as to the in-group and the out-group. I believe I understand his quote a bit better now; but I'm wary of people that set the bar high for their clubs. It ends up alienating people... for example, modern day revelation according to fundamentalists makes mormons non-Christians. I have to make some beans (I'm being summoned) so I'll have to chat later.
Isn't the Pledge said in school just an acknowledgement of some sort and not part of the curriculum? Someone check the syllabus. This talk about coercion is a little much.. wait til you get to your "Times Tables" before you talk about coercion! My two youngest went through the eighth grade in a non-religious private school. Imagine my great joy when they changed their Friday Pizza Day provider <b>from</b> Domino's because the owner, Tom Monaghan-- a Catholic-- gave money to Pro-Life causes. I'd say that that is coercive....
achebe -- i'm sorry if i wasn't clear..i never intended to say that orthodox or catholics are not christians...that is about the farthest thing from what I believe. particularly since i grew up in the episcopal church, kissing cousins with the catholics! you also said that you thought i was saying that "again." did you mean you thought that again...or i said that again...because i certainly don't recall ever saying anything like that...and if i did i was probably high on crack...and i don't even do crack, so now i'm really confused! for an entirely different subject, but in response to your post...i do not view mormons as christians. sorry if that offends you....i'd be happy to discuss with you why i think that...but even fairly liberal denominations of Christianity and ones that take a pretty ecclesiatic approach to faith who've spent some time considering the issue agree with me on that one. refman -- thanks for the kind words...
Hey MadMax, again I was probably incoherent. The 'again' was actually misplaced from an intuition (argghghg no search to correct my memory) from a conversation we had regarding the term 'born again' (I believe that was you and I, sorry for the haze). Did you mention that, iyo 'born again' described a group of protestants? I know of several Christians that thought of themselves that way, but more in a way of reaffirmation to their God. As you know, I'm not lds... but I do live in Salt Lake. I probably have a chip on my shoulders on both accounts, but of course you haven't offended me. I suppose much of this is an aside off of the current thread, lol. I know that if I try to argue in the defense of the lds that much of it will be a poor attempt from conversations I've had over the past few years (and a few of my friends right now get so annoyed with this specific conversation that it's not worth it, lol2. But, as I'm also short on time I will volley the notion that people of the lds faith do centralize upon Jesus, as do you (whatever Joseph Smith said 150 years ago; my grandpa showed me some of his more objectionable comments that probably had something to do with his murder). Also, remember... as the Catholics have the Apoc. the Mormons have their book (if it's a case of future writings). Have to run... maybe I can query a coworker and get back w/ you (from his own opinion, his own reading) in the next few days... all my best...
A large percentage of my extended family think that Catholics are not Christians...of course, they are complete idiots. Max, I don't think that you think that Catholics are not Christians (too much thinking), but I have found that it often seems by your posts that you state your Protestant view and then lump it in with all Christianity. I know you don't mean anything by it...but it can confuse a reader who is unsure. And I still think you are off with your Catholics not using imagery anymore statement. In regards to Mormonism - tread lightly, Max...remember there are plenty of Mormons who frequent these boards. I know you are always considerate...just a reminder. As for me, I think they should be classified as Christians. Not because I am an expert on LDS, but I know enough of them to combine it with my knowledge of Christianity and its history to come to a rational conclusion. Since the Protestant Reformation opened the door for greater individual interpretation (which is why Luther later objected to it), that will allow for a greater variety of such interpretations. All that one needs as a requirement is a good way for a worshipper to form a relationship with God and Jesus. Further taking into account the great variety (and often stark differences with mainstream worship) of pentecostal worship - all considered Christian - one finds even more support for a fairly broad umbrella. Moreso, moving to the southern hemisphere, one can find even more Christian movements that are morphing and having their own more unique spin. My opinion, then, is if you admonish LDS for "taking it too far" or for not promoting the true nature as espoused by one group or a few groups together, then the whole house of cards must come down. When taking such an action, the conclusion then would have to be drawn that Catholics are the only Christians - they established it, they did not approve of the Reformation split - God was in their house, etc.
rimmy -- you're absolutely right... a lot of times I take my very reformed faith ideas and say, "this is Christianity" when that isn't always EXAXCTLY the case. I apologize for that...you're absolutely right...that's not a complete or fair assessment. As for LDS...we'll have to agree to disagree. I've read a TON on LDS...in fact, I'd venture to say, outside of protestant Christianity, it is the religion I'm most familiar with. one of my very closest friends in law school was LDS and witnessed to me a ton...we had tremendous discussions and I learned a ton from him. I love him like a brother, but it doesn't change the fact I don't believe LDS is Christianity. I don't seek to offend anyone...but I don't hide the truth (at least as I see it) either. My biggest concerns with LDS have to do with the perversion (for lack of a better word) of the very essence of God...that, to me, is the beginning of all heresy. I'm not on an Inquisition here...but I won't hide from you how I feel on a topic...and you and others are certainly free to disagree. The good thing is when I disagree with you and Achebe, it's always civil...can't say that about everyone here....I really appreciate that from both of you.
How long has it been since this thread talked about the Pledge of Allegiance? Interesting stuff, though. I'm very familiar with Protestant and Catholic Christianity, and I always end up with friends who are LDS, so I'm pretty familiar with that, too. I would have to agree with MadMax that it has too many things added to it to be classified as just another branch of Christianity; it's pretty much its own religion. (the individual status of salvation of people from this church, of course, is between them and God... I don't presume to know anything about that)
I dated a woman for awhile who lived in Salt Lake City. She was not LDS. She told me that the schoolrooms were dismissed by LDS Wards numerically while her kids had to wait for all the LDS kids to be dismissed before they were allowed to leave for the day. Talk about sticking out like a sore thumb.... On a good note, she had a lot of great jello recipes!
isabel -- well said...eternal judgment is not my job...discernment in this world is my job, however...for me and for my family.
