But you would be hard pressed to deny AI and Carter are elite SGs and Stackhouse is in the next tier, right? Point being, there is more than shooting % in defining good SGs. You get 3 points for a 3 point shot. Thus 43% from the 2 is equivalent over time to hitting 65% from 2 land. Of course it is relevant when evaluating a players productivity. Of course his scoring would be going down. But I thought your criticism was about his FG%, not point production. If you look at how such players like Anderson, Smith, and Christie's shooting % went up going to those teams or down leaving them, it is obvious Mobley's would improve on a better offensive team. BTW Mobley would start for any of those teams sans LA because the best 2 guard in the league plays there. But then again maybe they would play 3 guards. Sacramento(1) - Christie Dallas(2) - Finley L.A. Lakers(3) - Kobe Minnesota(4) - Wally San Antonio(5) - Steve Smith Utah(6) - ? Portland(7) - Bonzi Wells Seattle(8) - Brent Barry The only teams above Mobley for sure would not start for are Dallas and LA (though it is possible LA would go with a 2 SG line-up some times). SA would LOVE to start Mobley and move Smith to the 3 (he plays there a lot anyway). For the T-Wolves it would be a close call whether to send Joe Smith or Cuttino out of the starting line-up (moving Wally to SF or keeping him), regardless CM he would get a ton of minutes for Minn. Utah is a no brainer CM would start for. For Seattle, Portland, and Sacramento--it would be a very close call. Though Mobley is better than any of those SGs individually sans maybe Wells, chemistry could play a roll. I certainly wouldn't trade Mobley for any of those latter players to join the Rockets. New Jersey(1) - Kittles Milwaukee(2) - Ray Allen Detroit(3) - Stackhouse Boston(4) - ? Washington(5) - Rip Hamilton Toronto(6) - Vince Orlando(7) - McGrady Philadelphia(8) - Iverson Mobley would not start for sure on Phily, Orlando, Milw and Detr. I imagine Vince would play SF (Mobley might start), Mobley and Rip are hard to distigush right now (toss up), with Boston it would depend where they want Pierce to play (SG or SF), and Mobley would start for NJ (clearly better than Kittles). So overall Mobley stacks up pretty well againt the other elite SGs on elite teams. There is a group clearly better-Kobe, AI, McGrady, Pierce, Carter, Allen--you will not get an argument from me that Mobley belongs with them. But Mobley is among the best of the next group of players. On an elite team his FG% would probably be above .45 and I would think he would be scoring between 16-18 PPG (pure conjecture of course). There are only 10 or so SGs that could do that, that puts him in good company. I never said Mobley was anything close to Iverson. I don't think FG% is a good measure of what Iverson does at all for that team. Also, Iverson is shooting 40%--that is noticably less than 43%. I don't get what you are saying about the other part. Francis could be as good as Magic and CM as good as Jordan and right now we wouldn't be able to win a championship because of our front court (especially bad interior defense). However if Francis becomes the best PG in the league and Mobley stays in the top 7-12 best SGs that could be enough to win if our front court was really really solid (the Pistons formula). We would love to have a SF, PF and C as good relative to their position counterparts (top 7-12) as Mobley is to other SGs--we would be in business. Thus again in my mind the most issues facing the Rockets to get better is not improvment in the SG position unless we could steal Kobe or T-Mac away (yeah right), but they are 1) can we get some outstanding front court players, and 2) will Francis continue his assention toward being the best point in the league. I am concerned about Francis's set backwards this year in health (mental and physical) and leadership far more than about anything else honestly.
Originally posted by Desert Scar But you would be hard pressed to deny AI and Carter are elite SGs and Stackhouse is in the next tier, right? Point being, there is more than shooting % in defining good SGs. The whole argument here and in the other thread is that Mobley shoots a poor % not that Mobley is or isn't a good player. He is a good player but not a player you want scoring 20 points/game IMHO. AI's career shooting % is 42% to Mobley's 43%. Of course AI scores 30 points/game and is the primary option while Mobley isn't. I feel it's safe to say that if Mobley had to score 30 points/game his shooting % would tumble even farther. Carter is a career 45% shooter and scores 25 points/game so obviously he's not only a better shooter than Cat, he's a better player, and also the primary scoring option on his team again unlike Mobley. Not to mention AI and Carter have taken their teams to the playoffs. I think it's quite fair to judge Mobley on his shooting % when he is after all the "offensive specialist". You get 3 points for a 3 point shot. Thus 43% from the 2 is equivalent over time to hitting 65% from 2 land. Of course it is relevant when evaluating a players productivity. 20 points/game on 43% shooting is still 43% shooting no matter how you want to slice it. If Mobley took all his shots from 3 he would shoot worse and he's already a 43% career shooter. Mobley isn't our Matt Bullard, he has the ball in his hands a ton so his shooting % is very relevant to our offense. He shoots better from 3 than from 2 and looking at his stats Mobley's 3point% has risen considerably this year which I conclude to be due to the new rules. Here is Mobley's FG and 3point% his first three years and then this year. 98-99 - FG% 42.5 ThreePt% - 35.8 99-00 - FG% 43 ThreePt% - 35.6 00-01 - FG% 43.4 ThreePt% - 35.7 01-02 - FG% 43.3 ThreePt% - 43.7 As you can see his FG and 3Pt% are relatively constant and then this year his 3Pt% rises dramatically. If it were natural improvement you'd probably see it rise gradually so it seems likely to me that it's either a complete fluke or just the new rules boosting that %. Of course his scoring would be going down. But I thought your criticism was about his FG%, not point production. If you look at how such players like Anderson, Smith, and Christie's shooting % went up going to those teams or down leaving them, it is obvious Mobley's would improve on a better offensive team. BTW Mobley would start for any of those teams sans LA because the best 2 guard in the league plays there. But then again maybe they would play 3 guards. No way Mobley is starting over Christie because he can't play defense or pass. They already have Webber and Peja taking the shots. San Antonio he may start but he's not getting 20 points/game by a VERY long shot. Sacramento(1) - Christie Dallas(2) - Finley L.A. Lakers(3) - Kobe Minnesota(4) - Wally San Antonio(5) - Steve Smith Utah(6) - ? Portland(7) - Bonzi Wells Seattle(8) - Brent Barry The only teams above Mobley for sure would not start for are Dallas and LA (though it is possible LA would go with a 2 SG line-up some times). SA would LOVE to start Mobley and move Smith to the 3 (he plays there a lot anyway). For the T-Wolves it would be a close call whether to send Joe Smith or Cuttino out of the starting line-up (moving Wally to SF or keeping him), regardless CM he would get a ton of minutes for Minn. Utah is a no brainer CM would start for. For Seattle, Portland, and Sacramento--it would be a very close call. Though Mobley is better than any of those SGs individually sans maybe Wells, chemistry could play a roll. I certainly wouldn't trade Mobley for any of those latter players to join the Rockets. Utah is a no brainer? I'm sure Sloan would really love Mobley, he's just the type of player that they go for. He wouldn't score 20 points on any of those teams and might only start for Seattle or San Antonio. New Jersey(1) - Kittles Milwaukee(2) - Ray Allen Detroit(3) - Stackhouse Boston(4) - ? Washington(5) - Rip Hamilton Toronto(6) - Vince Orlando(7) - McGrady Philadelphia(8) - Iverson Mobley would not start for sure on Phily, Orlando, Milw and Detr. I imagine Vince would play SF (Mobley might start), Mobley and Rip are hard to distigush right now (toss up), with Boston it would depend where they want Pierce to play (SG or SF), and Mobley would start for NJ (clearly better than Kittles). No chance man. He's not measurably better overall than Kittles, Rip isn't going anywhere, and Boston already has Antoine Walker throwing up all kinds of nonsense. They need Mobley like they need Yinka Dare. So overall Mobley stacks up pretty well againt the other elite SGs on elite teams. There is a group clearly better-Kobe, AI, McGrady, Pierce, Carter, Allen--you will not get an argument from me that Mobley belongs with them. But Mobley is among the best of the next group of players. On an elite team his FG% would probably be above .45 and I would think he would be scoring between 16-18 PPG (pure conjecture of course). There are only 10 or so SGs that could do that, that puts him in good company. No he doesn't stack up pretty well at all with any elite players anywhere. And the reason Mobley's fg% would be 45% on an elite team is because they wouldn't be letting him try to score 20 points/game. He wouldn't have free reign to stall an entire offense in order to get his points. I never said Mobley was anything close to Iverson. I don't think FG% is a good measure of what Iverson does at all for that team. Also, Iverson is shooting 40%--that is noticably less than 43%. I don't get what you are saying about the other part. Francis could be as good as Magic and CM as good as Jordan and right now we wouldn't be able to win a championship because of our front court (especially bad interior defense). However if Francis becomes the best PG in the league and Mobley stays in the top 7-12 best SGs that could be enough to win if our front court was really really solid (the Pistons formula). We would love to have a SF, PF and C as good relative to their position counterparts (top 7-12) as Mobley is to other SGs--we would be in business. Thus again in my mind the most issues facing the Rockets to get better is not improvment in the SG position unless we could steal Kobe or T-Mac away (yeah right), but they are 1) can we get some outstanding front court players, and 2) will Francis continue his assention toward being the best point in the league. I am concerned about Francis's set backwards this year in health (mental and physical) and leadership far more than about anything else honestly. Actually I think it's a very good measure of what Iverson does. The Sixers weren't an elite team until they surrounded Iverson with rebounders, defenders, and role players willing to sacrifice shots. Iverson is a ball hog but just so happens to be more talented than Mobley so they built an entire system and team around him and it STILL wasn't enough to win a title when all the pieces fit as well as they could have imagined. Instead of going out and finding a top 10 frontcourt player which is going to be a damn hard thing to do why don't we just go find a solid 2 guard or even a real point guard who can defend, rebound, pass, and shoot a decent percentage? Then we can put Mobley on the bench where he belongs as a sixth man so he can come in for his 20-25 minutes/game and let loose providing some instant offense instead of bogging down the entire offense with iso's so he can get his 20 points/game.
Timing, I think your beef is with the Rudy. If you think Cat is putting up too many shots and running too many iso's, then that would be the coaches problem. I'll agree that if EG starts catching fire or we pick up somebody else, Cat's PPG will probably go down because the points will get spread around. Your damn right if we put Cat onto a contender team, his avg will go down. And I agree that if that happened that would be a positive thing. But right now, we need Cat's 20 PPG because where else is it going to come from? Nobody else is that consistant (but Steve, of course). But I don't want to see Steve, as the PG, scoring 26 and Cat 15 because then the ball movement will be even less than it is now. And it is effective because as DesScar demonstrated that his shooting % is rather average relative to other SG's considering point production. As a result, it's a hard sell to others that his % is a detriment to the team. The Rocks need his 20 PPG or else we would have only won 8 games this season since no one else on the team can post those numbers. But I DO NOT AGREE that we should put Cat on the bench. If we are unable to utilize his abilities in the starting lineup, then that is a coaching problem...it's not a flaw in his abilities. It's not as if he's physically incapable of passing or defense...he just needs the motivation...ala coaching. Only way Cat sits is if we have a Kobe equiv on the team and that's not too realistic, is it? But you must prescribe to the grass is greener philosophy. You should be thankful for what you do have and foster it rather than risk crushing a good thing.
You're probably right about RudyT. Cat is playing as hard as he can to fill to the role that Rudy has given him. And no doubt we need Mobley to score right now with our current roster however I don't believe we can be an elite team with Mobley's role being what it is now. I guess that's my point. I'd rather see Francis getting 23pts, a front court player getting 18 pts, and Mobley coming off the bench to get his 12-14. I feel that's a much better recipe for success but of course you need that talented front court player that we don't have yet and a point guard to run an offense involving people instead of all this one on one iso pick and roll stuff.
Timing, harder to address or not, I just don't see how you can get around the fact it is because our front court is the 2nd worst in the league (thanks to Chicago's lunacy) where out chief problems lie. I don't care if Francis is Magic level (he might have the talent so it could be possible) and Mobley is Jordan level (he doesn't have the talent--but this is a hypothetical)--with the current Rocket front court players they could not win a championship. I also think it would be <i> harder </i> to do a major upgrade to our SG position than it is to any of our front court positions. Unless Kobe, AI, TMac, Vince, Pierce, or Allen become available to us we are not going to do <i> much </i> better than CM. It will be easier for us to find the next Elton Brand, McDyess, Lafrenz, J. Oneal, Marion, Peja, Jamison, Gasol, or Abdur-Rahim (borderline front-court all-stars but not all-NBA caliber)--that would grealty improve out team than it is to find one of the former group (all-NBA caliber SGs). Right now we hope EG can be one of those players but he is our only hope right now. I agree with you that I hope Mobley's roll can change. I actually thought it was quite interesting Mobley's FG percentages have been so constant. But what you have to figure is that when he arrived the Rockets had Barkley and Hakeem setting him up and he was a 10PPG player (most a spot and shoot). The fact his shooting hasn't fallen in a much, much, more difficult role is a good thing. But I also think Mobley would change his role (shoot less, focus more on defense) if there was a reason to change it--there was better offensive options in the floor for the Rockets. Right now there isn't such a better option and it is conjecture to think Mobley couldn't adjust to better thew team. I think addressing our front court ineptness and Francis development are FAR more important issues than anything having to do with the SG position or Mobley's roll.
Wow, I think we almost came to an agreement. 1. Cat's 20 PPG is not an optimal situation but is necessary at this point in time. 2. We need consistant front court help and with that we'll see our point production even out more. But I guess we can't agree on starting/benching Mobley, however. All I'll say is I wish we were in position to bring Cat off the bench...which assumes we have a better option. But I'd rather us focus our energy in filling our needs at 3,4,5 rather than 2. Cat is a very servicable 2...not perfect...but you'd be hard pressed to do better. Even if you did manage to do better, would it negatively impact team chemistry? Just a thought. Desert, Timing: Thanks for the good discussion.
1st part, I said Mobley is not at the elite level. But he is without a doubt no worse than in the 2nd quarter of the best SGs in the league. What more to do you want? To get significantly better than that you have to be an AI, Kobe, T-Mac, Vince, Pierce or Allen. It is no shame not being in this group, and if you have a team of players #7-#12 in the league at their positions you will be very, very good. 2nd part. I think this is a bit unfair slant of the 6ers and Iverson. By this standard every team the last 2 years who didn't have Shaq bluntly failed. Tim Duncan failed, KG failed, Webber failed, Allen failed, Carter failed, TMac failed, well, you get the picture. I would gladly have a team of this failed players over the last 2 years. Also, Chicago and Detriot got their championships with primarily roll players (good defenders, rebounders, some offensive abilities) around their star guards. Francis is supposed to be our star guard, and like Isiah or Magic there is no reason he doesn't have the capability to do it from the point. Having a quality 2 guard can be a part of this--while I won't say CM will ever be Dumars level he could perform a role like Scott did for the Lakers if Francis continues to develop leadership abilities as a 1. Personally, I think Phily's formula was just fine, and if they had front court role players around Iverson were like Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Laimbeer, Edwards, Aguire, Worthy and Valde, AI might have a championship by now. Instead they had journeymen like Snow, Lynch, Hill and Roger Bell getting meaningful minutes. Ordinarly those guys would have had zero business playing in the NBA finals--it was because of AI they were able to. I see Phily's result last year more of a testament to this approach being potentially successful for the guard lead Rockets than a dismal failure of scheme/players.
