You mean the 39 year old version of possibly the greatest player of all-time? Michael Jordan Position: F-G Born: 02/17/63 Height: 6-6 / 1,98 Weight: 216 lbs. / 98,0 kg. College - North Carolina '84 Knee trouble will force Jordan to bench Jordan has suffered from tendinitis in the knee all season and missed a game at San Antonio on Dec. 4. The injury was aggravated when he banged knees with teammate Eton Thomas in a game against Sacramento before the All-Star game, but Jordan didn't feel the effects until this weekend. "The competitive nature sometimes is just to gut it out," said Jordan, who plans to return for Thursday's home game against New Jersey. "But if you're looking at the long haul ... you have to kind of use your head a little bit. It gives the team a little chance to go out and live on their own a little bit without their father being around."
Come on Cat, you're smarter than that to ask me such a simple question. To begin with Max was a role player, who at least provided defense. Also, Max wasn't counted on (though he was clutch when we did count on him) to take over games during the clutch. I love Mobley's attitude about wanting the ball late in games, but when he forces up bad shots, I would almost rather have Cato getting the ball. Another thing is that Maxwell in his last few years in Houston, seemed to know his role and limitations. If you notice, I think Maxwell's shots per game went down dramatically after the 91-92 season or so. Mobley thinks he's a star when he is far from one. I guess part of this problem is attributed to Francis' seeming unwillingness to be "the man" and take over games, so that we don't have to pray that Cat's 30 ft game winning jumpers go down.
I have to agree with the notion that Cat is our MVP this season. He's played through injury. He plays with high energy every night He's ESPN's most underrated player He's one piece of the most feared backcourt He's got a great outside shot He's got a great 1st step to the hoop He's a great FT shooter He's not a salary cap problem What's not to freaking like? I don't understand any notion that Cat is not one of our most productive players and could be on any team in this league (except the Lakes where he'd be 3rd option). I'll agree that Cat wasn't as potent when Steve was out. Cat had the scoring burden plus other teams knew that. So that's a double whammy. He's been excellent since Steve's return.
Hilarious. When ESPN bashes the Rockets, they are always "idiots" or something. Yet, when they finally do praise a Rocket, they must be right.
I'll agree but Max wasn't our 2nd scoring option either. Mobley's is at 43% plus a respectible 43% from 3. That ain't bad at all. Allan Houston is only 45%/43%. Steve Smith is 45%. Cat's killing folks like Spreewell and Van Exel. So if Cat was shooting 46% he's suddenly be the player you want? I can't really find any guards other than Nash shooting better than 46%. Nice job. Compare Max's best career average, which happened to be in a championship season, to Cat's career avg. That's fair. Look, Cat is a hired gun. He's asked to score. Max was never a primary scoring threat nor could he be. Huh? What does Dream have to do with Cat? You lost me. I can't even respond.
I think when ESPN manages to overcome their complete blackout of the Rockets, it makes people take notice is all.
Try to find one quote from me where I bashed ESPN? That being said, others have noted lack of coverage of the Rockets. If we continuously drop off their radar screen, the argument suggests, if ESPN noticed Cat then he must be doing something right. I wonder why you quoted me but not The Cat? Scared? BTW, I noticed you didn't comment on any other part of that post. Why, because I'm right?
Anyone who needs to use an ESPN analysts opinion to back up a point is proof they don't have much of an argument. The only NBA guys I trust from ESPN are David Aldridge, Fred Carter, and the other guy who does NBA 2 Night. I could care less what someone in ESPN Mag says. ESPN Mag is the worst sports magazine for information or analysis. I guess I can use Bob Kemp and his bashings of the Rockets as reference.
Agreed. Mobley carried us when Steve was out. Speaking of which, how many games is Steve gonna play this year?
ESPN isn't the point here. Don't stray from the issue. The point is that Cat is a good player. If you or any other naysayer could support your claims with facts why Cat is not a quality player then that would be great. But all I ever see is "He's a poor decision maker." Therefore we should trade him since his potential has obviously run it's course and he won't get better. Look, player's stats tend to not get better with age. But players typically become smarter and more efficient NBA players as they age. If that's the only knock on him, then I'd say were in great shape.
Originally posted by krosfyah I'll agree but Max wasn't our 2nd scoring option either. 90-91 - Maxwell 17pts/game - 4th on team 91-92 - Maxwell 17.1pts/game - 3rd on team 92-93 - Maxwell 13.8pts/game - 2nd on team 93-94 - Maxwell 13.6pts/game - 3rd on team In 3 of 4 of those seasons Vernon is tenths of a point away from being 2nd in scoring on the team. He scored virtually as much as anyone on the team with the exception of Hakeem. If you're saying Mobley can't play defense because he scores a lot and Vernon didn't so he could play defense, well that's just a terribly weak argument. Hakeem was our 1st option and I guess he played defense okay. Mobley's is at 43% plus a respectible 43% from 3. That ain't bad at all. Allan Houston is only 45%/43%. Steve Smith is 45%. Cat's killing folks like Spreewell and Van Exel. So if Cat was shooting 46% he's suddenly be the player you want? I can't really find any guards other than Nash shooting better than 46%. Mobley's 42.8% is 21st out of the league's 29 starting shooting guards. That isn't respectable unless you're a CBA'er looking for a job. If you can't find any guards shooting better then you clearly didn't look. In addition, I don't think you quite realize the implications of shooting 42.8 and shooting 45. If he shot 45% his average would go from 20.6 to 21.3. The kind of difference that can win games. Nice job. Compare Max's best career average, which happened to be in a championship season, to Cat's career avg. That's fair. What's fair got to do with anything? It was a comparison of why we could win with Vernon and not Cat. Vernon's highest assist year just happened to be the year we won the title. Coincidence? Vernon's career assist average with the Rockets was 4.3 to Cat's 2.6. Vernon passed the ball. Vernon's worst assist year in Houston is nearly a full assist better than Cat's best. Look, Cat is a hired gun. He's asked to score. Max was never a primary scoring threat nor could he be. He clearly was a primary scoring threat as I've pointed out above. The old Rockets didn't have two threats, they distributed the ball. Huh? What does Dream have to do with Cat? You lost me. I can't even respond. Maybe you should have read the question before you responded. BTW, kidrock, I would love to hear how the Rockets could win with Vernon Maxwell at SG, but not Cuttino Mobley. Quite clearly having an MVP caliber, high % scoring threat allowed the Rockets to win with a guard who shot 40%. The current Rockets have no such luxury.
The 94 Rock's were a different kind of team with only one goto player. The reason everybody's averages were similar was because whoever the double came off was asked to shoot. Max typically didn't create his own shots like Cat and Steve as they are our goto players. Now you're comparing Dream to Cat? I said this exact same thing in another post already. Few players are as good defensively as they are offensively. Dream and Jordan are two that come to mind. Typically, you don't want your main offensive production to burn too much energy on the defensive end. At least that isn't an uncommon philosophy. If two teams have a scoring threat at the same position, it isn't uncommon to see coaches move folks around so they don't have to guard each other. I'd bet if you looked at Cat's #'s since Steve's return you'd see a much better average. Cat took a lot more shots than he would otherwise and was guarded more heavily during that 15 game stretch. If I get time, I'll run it today and see. I read a book in college called How to Lie With Statistics. We both know it wasn't Cat's shooting % that caused our record. It's lack of execution down the stretch and poor team defense in the 1st quarter. Why we could win with Max instead? You mean the same Verson that Rudy kicked off the team? But is there a coincidence? If you call Dream and the most dominating player in the leage a coincidence of why we won. Yes, I'd like to see Cat get more assists. But I'm apparently not ready to trade him away because of it. The guy hasn't hit his prime yet. He's probably still 2 years away. The Rockets have problems and I wouldn't say Cat's assist #'s even make the top 5. Here's a list (this is not conclusive, just some thoughts. So chime in as I know I'll get beat on for doing this). 1. Inability to execute in crunch time 2. Poor defense in the 1st quarter or half (then forced to dig out) 3. Steve's headaches 4. lack of a strong 3 guard (Walt/Rice will help over what we have now) 5. Inability to run a fast break If the Rocks can fix the things on this list, I'd be willing to bet that Cat's assist problem will fix itself. Either that or nobody will ever notice. It sounds like were are in agreement here. Those Rocks only had one scoring threat. Everybody just has to hit open shots. Maybe if you could rewrite the question so it's a complete sentence, maybe I'd understand what you said. Are you saying that if we had Dream on this team we might win some more. Boy, way to go out on a limb.
Comparing Maxwell to Mobley is ridiculous. Maxwell wouldn't even have had a career if it weren't for Hakeem Olajuwon! The guy was acquired for 25K, and soon after he left the Rockets, he was out of the league! Add it up. The guy couldn't even crack 40 percent from the field in either of the championship years, and that was with constant wide open looks! Imagine if you tried to run an offense through the guy. So he averaged 5 assists one year, big freaking deal. Throw it to Hakeem, he scores, there's an assist. How hard is that? Mobley has never been asked to play a role anything close to Maxwell, outside of maybe his rookie year. If Mobley were being asked to stand outside and get WIDE OPEN looks, and on the other end funnel his man to the best defensive player of all-time, I'm sure he could manage it. Instead he's often got the offense running through him, gets double-teamed, or zoned, and plays on a team that doesn't know what defense is.
Originally posted by krosfyah The 94 Rock's were a different kind of team with only one goto player. The reason everybody's averages were similar was because whoever the double came off was asked to shoot. Max typically didn't create his own shots like Cat and Steve as they are our goto players. You're trying to warp the content of the question posed and that was why we could win with Vernon and not Cat. Vernon played defense, in fact he was a very very good defender while Cat is not. You said Vernon was never a 2nd option however he scored as much as anyone on the team other than the 1st option so that certainly suggests he was as important an offensive player as anyone else on the team. The manner in which he scored his points is irrelevant to the question of Vernon's defensive ability. Incidentally Vernon is probably the fastest Rocket ever so he in fact could create his own shots, he was not Matt Maloney as you're trying to imply. Now you're comparing Dream to Cat? I said this exact same thing in another post already. Few players are as good defensively as they are offensively. Dream and Jordan are two that come to mind. Typically, you don't want your main offensive production to burn too much energy on the defensive end. At least that isn't an uncommon philosophy. If two teams have a scoring threat at the same position, it isn't uncommon to see coaches move folks around so they don't have to guard each other. Vernon was probably better defensively than offensively. Another reason why we could win with Vernon and not Cat. If Cat were Vernon's defensive equal we'd obviously be a better team. I'd bet if you looked at Cat's #'s since Steve's return you'd see a much better average. Cat took a lot more shots than he would otherwise and was guarded more heavily during that 15 game stretch. If I get time, I'll run it today and see. I read a book in college called How to Lie With Statistics. We both know it wasn't Cat's shooting % that caused our record. It's lack of execution down the stretch and poor team defense in the 1st quarter. Why we could win with Max instead? You mean the same Verson that Rudy kicked off the team? But is there a coincidence? If you call Dream and the most dominating player in the leage a coincidence of why we won. We weren't winning much with Cat and Steve so what does it matter? First you say Cat is our 2nd option and we could win with him then you admit lack of execution is a problem which certainly involves Cat. Does Cat execute any better down the stretch with Francis on the floor? There are a lot of people who would seriously question that. Yes, I'd like to see Cat get more assists. But I'm apparently not ready to trade him away because of it. The guy hasn't hit his prime yet. He's probably still 2 years away. The Rockets have problems and I wouldn't say Cat's assist #'s even make the top 5. Where have I advocated trading him? Stick to what I write at least. Cat's assist numbers have remained constant in Houston while his role has increased significantly. That says to me that he's not passing the ball, not creating for teammates, and instead jacking up as many shots as possible. If he passed more his shooting% might rise as a result of taking better shots. Are you saying that if we had Dream on this team we might win some more. Boy, way to go out on a limb. Quite obviously we could win with Dream in his prime which is what I said pretty much. However since we don't have a high % MVP caliber scoring threat it makes it that much harder to win with someone like Cat. This isn't a put Cat in Vernon's place with Hakeem and see if we can win scenario. These are reasons as to why we could win in 93 with a guard like Vernon and why we can't win with a guard like Cat now. Cat shoots a poor %, he's not a defensive player, he's not particularly intelligent on the floor, he doesn't pass the ball, and he doesn't have a MVP caliber high% low post scorer to work off of. All reasons why we can't win a title with someone like Cat.
You raise valid points. I commend you for supporting your arguments without making it a personal attack. Max is clearly a better defensive player. I'll have to disagree with you that Cat is poor however. Cat gets some steals and blocks that often surprise me. I haven't taken the time to compare his stats to other guards, however, so maybe I'm dead wrong. I think our team defense needs to be better and as such Cat could provide adequate defense. If Max were here today in place of Cat, IMO we'd be in worse shape. We need Cat's points like nobody's business. Plus he takes a lot of pressure off Steve. But there you go implying Cat's shooting % is bad. Please see the thread Our Gaurds By The Numbers where I demonstrate that Cat is shooting well over 45% when Steve in in the lineup. I don't think Cat is our problem. He can be an excellent compliment on this team when we get the peices together and gel. I think we've beat the subject to death. I'll agree to disagree.
Hmm. Interesting, krosfyah started looking at the top players, what should he have started at the bottom? Mobley is one of 8 SGs scoring more than 20 PPG, and guess what, despite playing on a worst team of the bunch he shoots better than 3 of the other 7 players. Do ya'll realize he shoots better from the field than all-stars Allen Iverson, Jerry Stackhouse and <i> Vince Carter </i>? Surprisingly we don't hear much about Vince's poor decision making despite him having better players around him than Mobley has for most of this season. Do ya'll also realize Mobley shoots 3s better than any of the top 8 SG scorers. Maybe, just maybe, when you are your teams 1st option it is harder to shoot well than when you sit back and wait for the ball to come to you. I have very little doubt if Mobley played for SA or Sac or LA there would be few complaints about his shooting percentages. His problems are not primarily internal, his problems are primarily external--the fact the rest of the players, except hear and there Steve, basically, suck. To me the larger question is what kind of record and outlook would we have if we took away the one player consistently scoring. Will Mobley ever be the best 2 guard in the league? Heck no. But we don't need him to be, Steve is supposed to be our dominant player. Having the best PG in the league plus a say a top 10 SG for the next half a decade or more is a pretty good formula if he can ever get some help behind them. I guess on the bright side if we did lose Mobley and Francis has another year like this one we could get the #1 pick in the follwing draft. In all honesty, Mobley's decision making and Mobley as our long term fixture at the 2 are two of the LEAST of our concerns right now. Our bigger problems are 1) are we ever going to have a front line that is not scrap off the bottom in the West in talent and skill; and 2) Is Steve still developing or is this year a horrible sign for things to come. I can almost assure you that latter are far greater concerns of the people actually responsible for the Rockets franchise's success and viability than anything concerning Cuttino Mobley as our long term 2.
I'll take Mobley over mad MAx anyday for two reasons that have nothing to do with stats. 1) I don't see him punching a fan 15 rows up in the stands during a game. 2) I doubt he would go AWOL like MAd MAx did in 95 after we traded for Clyde. MAD MAX is a Benedict ARnold in my book. When I see him in the Clutch City video from 94 I want to slap his punk ....
Allen Iverson and Jerry Stackhouse are renouned for jacking up all kinds of stupid shots and Vince Carter is a career 45% shooter so I wouldn't say his stats this season are indicative of Mobley's relative worth. The fact that Mobley shoots better than Iverson and Stackhouse isn't much to brag about. The fact that Mobley shoots better from 3point range than top scorers is irrelevant because he's still shooting 43%. 43% is 43%. If Mobley played for Sacramento, LA, or San Antonio he'd be coming off the bench or scoring in the low double figures where he belongs. No way in HELL he's scoring 20 points per game on any championship caliber team anywhere. No chance. In fact look at the top 8 teams in each conference. Where is he getting 20 points/game? He's not getting 20 points on any of those teams and the number of teams he'd start for is probably about 1 or 2. Sacramento(1) - Christie Dallas(2) - Finley L.A. Lakers(3) - Kobe Minnesota(4) - Wally San Antonio(5) - Steve Smith Utah(6) - ? Portland(7) - Bonzi Wells Seattle(8) - Brent Barry New Jersey(1) - Kittles Milwaukee(2) - Ray Allen Detroit(3) - Stackhouse Boston(4) - ? Washington(5) - Rip Hamilton Toronto(6) - Vince Orlando(7) - McGrady Philadelphia(8) - Iverson Honestly I don't think you've thought through what you're stating above about Francis and your top 10 shooting guard who shoots 43%. Last season the Sixers had Allen Iverson who shoots slightly worse than Mobley as the MVP, had the Defensive Player of the Year in Mutumbo, the Sixth Man of the Year in Mckie, the Coach of the Year in Larry Brown, a very solid supporting cast, and STILL lost in the Finals. Do you think if you replaced Iverson with Mobley that they would have won? Nope, he's not that type of player.
