Francis was victim to unreasonable expectations on this board and with public opinion, but he wasn't traded because of unreasonable expectations. He was traded because expectations were adjusted to reality, and reality wasn't good enough. I don't think anyone in the Rocket's organization ever thought he was an underachiever.
That is the real reason iam upset.I think these days depth is more imporant then just having a couple of stars.look at detroit I think if t mac and yao just took upon there selfs and said "hey its our fault"even though we know its not just there fault .that would force them to step up even more. I have watched every orlando game this year and sf has started so many fast breaks and excuted 90% better then last year.so it had to be the fact that our other players wern't really running the floor and, putting there selves in a postion to score.
Funny how people are willing to accept four years of no playoffs, ignore the boring and furstrating aspects of his game(TOs, dribble mania...), harping on his efforts and enthusiasm, yet turn their backs on a JVG who has a better career winning percentage, boring offense, and works hard no less. Talking about unfairness and double standard. I guess the only outlet for JVG in this situation is to start dribble around for 15 seconds then cross over CD and dunk over Earl Boykins on a lowered hoop. Clutching Zo's legs for your team won't help your case Devil, clutching Francis' legs and beg him to come back will.
If you are referring to me I have never been anti-JVG. JVG is trying to focus this offense around Yao and I understand that. However, lets not act like he is the second coming of Larry Brown. He inherited a team that went to the Finals. He didn’t build that Knicks team, so while he does get credit for some playoff success, that wasn’t his team.
This is why you really don't have any credibility on this... you've been playing both sides. You said just before this: "First of all I don’t have to spin our sorry ass 4-6 record with two of the losses to two of the sorriest teams in the NBA. That speaks for itself." Since you wanted this to "speak for itself", then this is what I decipher: Van Gundy and Yao are constants from last season, so what's changed? McGrady and the supporting cast ... whoops, wait a minute: despite the absolute fact that there are significant changes around the team's "duo", we're not allowed to mention this because it's no different than what Francis had (says your book). So it leaves one swap -- the guy you mock as our "new super duper franchise player" for Steve Francis. What else were you possibly trying to say other than everything's the same but Francis-McGrady, and we got worse? Here's a better question: Why are you willing to give Francis a free pass here and calls fans' analysis of his game completely irrational after 5 seasons, but McGrady is to be mocked after playing 8 games? My personal opinion is McGrady is much better to have around Yao. He has a much better ability of finding Yao when penetrating. And he's not the point guard. If we get a decent playmaking one, we will be so much better off than having kept Francis and gotten a better "two" or "three". Francis may run more in Orlando (I haven't watched him much this season, but want to) but there were numerous times I saw where he and/or Mobley botched simple 3-on-1 or 2-on-1 fast breaks. I don't blame Francis so much for not running the team more ... if I have in the past I was wrong ... I blame him for being incapable of running an efficient break once it has started because he is not an above average passer at his position. I don't blame JVG or the supporting cast when Steve Francis couldn't make the fundamental pass consistently when the team was actually running a break. In my opinion, McGrady is a superstar scorer and an above average playmaker for his position. Francis on the other hand is a star scorer but a below average playmaker at his position. Francis is going to get the accolades now because he came on to a completely revamped and reloaded team that came off a 21-win season. Never mind that McGrady scored over 32 a game the previous season, made the playoffs with primarily stiffs and nearly knocked off the #1 seeded Pistons in the first round, and that was with Grant Hill as mostly a cheerleader. McGrady's expectations here are higher and the bar (playoff team last season) is significantly higher, as it should be. But regarding Francis, come back to me next year... and the year after that. Their fans are thrilled right now because this clearly is better than the 21-win product, but once expectations are made, lets see if he keeps improving that team or gets it to a consistent 50-win (give or take) status. If he does as the team's leader, I'd admit I was wrong about Steve's limits ... but unless T-Mac gets seriously injured, I wouldn't have any regrets about the deal -- and then my only regret would be that we didn't deal Steve for someone else. We did hit the limit of what we would achieve with Steve as the "Franchise" here, in my personal opinion.
How can I not have credibility. I have never said that the Rockets should have held on to Francis. Just because I am critical of this year’s team doesn’t mean I don’t think it was a good trade for all parties involved. I have stated in several posts in this thread that this team wasn’t built to suit Francis’s talents. Me being critical of the team, and my thoughts on the trade or two separate issues. I think McGrady is a better fit for Yao simply because of his talent and his style of play. I know the Rockets weren’t going to trade Yao and I know that Yao and Steve were never going to fully mesh so I understand that a trade had to be made. As I said earlier, my only point is this, a lot of myths about Francis will be exposed this season, both by the play of the Rockets and the play of the Magic. Such as that we saw the ceiling on Francis’s game, partly what this thread was supposed to be about. But that post proves nothing, case in point its from last season when this wasn’t even a topic.
pgabriel, listen very carefully. Every player that leads a team WILL GET CRITICIZED for not elevating the team. That comes with the territory. It's true that NO PLAYER can lead a team to the championship by himself (star w/scrubs: See Jordan's first years). And it's true that a star can benefit from having better talent around him. But it's also true that THAT player we (fans) deem the "star" HAS to play at the highest level each and every game. THAT *star* player has to SET THE BAR. If that bar is not higher than the rest of the league's stars, then we'll surely need a hell of a lot more team talent to off-set that difference. So, we are talking about two things. The team's collective talent. And then, the stars individual talent. Let me give you an example... Lets say that Jordan was drafted by a scrub team (1983 Bulls). He helps the team win more games. That much is true. But the team only achieves a sub-500 record. Is it Jordan's fault? Well, first...lets look at Jordan's individual stats (also the team's). How do they look? Are they sub-par too? Or are they extraordinary!? That's how you assess where the problem is (star or role players). Offensively speaking, great players can find ways to score and pass. They know when and when not to shoot and pass. They RESTRAIN themselves when the shot is NOT there. It's not just about EFFORT and HEART. It's about RESTRAINT too! That's how the best passers and shooters keep their efficiency high. They KNOW when, and when NOT to take action. And if a team is lucky enough to have a *star* that knows how to do those things..wow! That's Duncan, Shaq, KG, Hakeem, Jordan, Bird...etc... Lets talk about collective talent.... The Rockets could have been a better team, w/Francis if Eddie Griffin didn't have all his personal troubles. Our team was on a pace to really make improvements; collectively! Francis Mobley JJ/Nachbar Griffin Cato This was a team that could have been really good. And Griffin's toughness, shot-blocking and rebounding would have helped Francis. Well, we all know what happened to Griffin. Now, you talk about Orlando and Francis saying that he will do better. Sure, just like we would have with the team above. Francis has players around him (in Orlando) that help him out: Hill, Howard and Cato. Orlando is playing similar to how we could have played if our roster would have reached some sort of stable foundation. But you bring up a point about Francis having success in Orlando and "proving us wrong." What do mean when you say, "proving us wrong?" A title? Anything less than that is pointless when talking about success. If all you mean is that we were "unfair" to him and that he could have reached some success if he had the "right players" around him. That's not what people like me have a problem with. I always knew that if we had better players around him that it would help him and the team. But it would have been fools gold! Because, I don't want him leading us for the next 5 years. That's the issue. He's not that type of player. And it's too much to ask for a player like him to carry (or lead) the team. It doesn't mean that he wont have success here or there. But you have to look at both aspects of winning a title. You need the team to play together and you need the individual star to set the bar. Francis individual efficiency drops significantly when you take into account his turnovers and bad decision making. Francis is the type of player that needs others to make HIM better, not the other way around. He's a receiver off others, not a creator. Grant Hill makes himself better, but also makes others better too. That's what leaders should be like. Do you see the difference? Our duo of McGrady/Yao have a much better chance of winning a title than the Francis/Hill duo regardless of our 4-6 start. And that's all that matters. Success to me is NOT merely doing good throughout the season and then getting knocked out of the play-offs year after year. Our team should be built the goal of one day becoming an champion. I don't want to be good team that makes the play-offs, but loses each year. So, you can jump on the Orlando fan wagon all you want (you're a Rox fan?). But proving us wrong means a title. Nothing more, nothing less. I'll stick with McGrady/Yao, thank you very much!
Define "myths." Each BBS remember that has criticized Francis over the last 6 years have had different opinions about this. Some biased. Some reasonable. Some not so reasonable. So, "Myths," when taking about opinions, can not be defined by one word. We all have different criticisms. And you can see from my post above, it's not the same as a BBS members bashing Francis with a post like, "Francis sucks! He should have won a title his rookie year!" <---It is THOSE opinions that you seem to have the problem with, pgabriel.
I wonder how much we are gonna pay Mobley when his contract is up? He should be looking for a payday. If we don't pay much he'd probably walk. If we pay him much we are financially strained with a malcontent because Mobley said there's no freedom playing with a big man, referring to Yao. The team chemistry will be hurt. Cato is overrated. We play defense well enough without him. His one or two extra rebound won't be missed because he's liability on offense. It's not apt to compare the depth of Mobley and Cato to Hamilton and Wallace on the Detroit squad. It's not even close. So why fret over a new team's growing pain when the old one is without much hope at winning it all anyway? We are hampered by three injuries on this new team, in this young season. Also, if our problems are the same as last year, then why doesn't the trade deriders scream dismantling last year's team? Didn't we often lose to the lowly teams? Didn't we have third quarter collapse? We couldn't beat the Kings and Grizz, now we do. Btw, every player gets excessively bashed when the team can't deliver. It's not like people just single out Francis. Yao gets no slack on this board when he plays with an hyperextened elbow and a steel arm brace. Francis is gone, get over it.
What kind of team do you think Francis could win a title on? The Spurs? Last years Lakers? I know you have an unconditional love for Steve, but seriously, with his limitations and horrible decision making, what team WOULD 'fit' his talents?
When Francis and Cuttino come back to Toyota Center, I'll give them a standing O. Those dudes deserve it. The Rockets better show some heart during that game becuase Steve and Cuttino will. This reminds me when Cassell comes back to Houston, he usually kills us.
You'll give Francis and Cuttino a "standing O" because they tried really hard. What about? Cassell helped win a championship. Kinda differernt, don't ya think? Man tinman! You bash Howard for the littlest things. Seems like your standards for *standing Os* are quite low. I'll reserve my *standing Os* for guys like Hakeem and Drexler.
myth ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mth) n. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology. A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth” (Leon Wolff).
I'd give a standing O to Cassell. Don't put words in my mouth. I said I'd give a standing O to Francis and Cuttino when they come to town. Let me give you a fact. Cassell is on T Wolves. Steve and Cuttino are on the Magic. So they aren't all going to show up at the same time. You dont have to pay any respect to Steve/Cuttino. I bash Howard for the littlest things?? Like sucking? Give me a good argument about Howard. You tell me what GOOD he has done for this team. This great team of ours who is in jeopardy of not making the playoffs if we continue to play this way.
you pissed me off so much with putting words in my mouth that I should do the same for you! What about Pippen? YOu'd give him a standing O. He helped us win some games.
Hey tinny! My point is that Cassell deserves more credit (not necessarily a standing O) than Francis/Mobley, at least in my book. Want to give Francis/Mobley a standing O, by all means. Have fun! Like I said, Hakeem/Drexler are the only ones that deserve that type of applause. Your standards change from player to player (MoT can do no wrong?). Juwan Howard is a role player. He's not our "star." Should he step up his game? Sure, just like MoT, Ward and Lue.
What about Otis, Vernon, Horry, Robert Reid, Moses Malone, Kenny Smith,Barkley? I'd give them standing Os too. I'm not the only person who would give Steve/Cuttino respect. But if you dont appreciate them then you dont need to give them respect.
