Great. Good for him. Lots of people make lots of clear points. Why does he have to be so over the top about it?
See this is what I’m talking about right here. Just because the team was run through Francis and it didn’t win 50 games doesn’t mean that it was Francis’s fault. Some of you guys need to go look at some of those records from when Hakeem was the center point of this team, and the team wasn’t built to suit his talents. There are some low win total seasons in there, and there was even a time when management wanted to trade him. So what happened, was Hakeem a failure during those years, or was his team not built right. Not comparing Steve to Hakeem, just saying this, Francis never had a team built to suit his talents here. So I disagree that the Rudy era proved that Steve’s ceiling is limited. And if you want to argue that his numbers haven’t changed much, go see how much Hakeem’s numbers changed from the lean years to the championship year, not much at all. You can’t use the fact that now he has talent around him that compliments his game as an argument. I know that, that’s my whole point, he never had that here, even when the team was running through him. Yet he was still able to help those mish mesh rosters to winning seasons. Since you think his ceiling is so limited, tell me how many games you think some of those Francis led teams should have won since there was oh so much talent around Steve.
since i've already got so many things to respond to stop in the middle of the thread so hopefully everything i say won't have already been said. a. I agree with Will's premise. hating van gundy (which i do) doesn't mean we need to retrade for francis. if you can get a 25 year old top 5 player, you get him. always. b. take Clutch's post (edit: i see Clutch has posted twice now, i'm talking Clutch post #1), subtract the pgabriel parapraph and add more van gundy hate and it's pretty much exactly what i was going to say. c. from SamFisher Likewise if McGrady is so hampered by the JVG offense that he can only muster 19 points a game on 40% shooting, like Francis - then what was the point of getting him in the first place? isn't this amazing? even though it's only 8 games, steve francis unleashed is outplaying tmac chained up. van gundy just sucks the life out of people. d. right now pgabriel seems to feel the same way about talking about francis on here but is just in a more extreme state of mind than i am regarding francis. we got tired of francis getting crapped on for everything and now's our time to lash out back at everyone now that he's gone. especially now that he's gone and been successful so far. it's hard to take it all for 4 years and not wanna get back at people. i try to do it as little as possible but don't always succeed. e. pgabriel, I don’t know why you always make it seem like everybody pinned everything on Steve that's because they did. if it could be steve's fault, it was. it doesn't take francis-colored glasses to think that way. Kim seems to agree with it. i'm sure other more objective people w/o francis in their s/n would think so, too. he became public enemy #1 last year and everything went to him. it's not that he's without fault (his enormous amount of careless turnovers being chief among them) but he got waaaaayyyyy too much heat. f. steve made poor decisions on the break more than he should have (i think there is no doubt) but we never were a running team or emphasized it at all while he was here. the percentage of 3 on 1 and 2 on 1 breaks he screwed up is vastly overstated by people on here. even when you technically mess up a 2 on 1 you can still score. orlando is showing that steve is not averse to running and that if you get steve out running with people things don't go nearly as badly as people here like to think. he finishes very well and doesn't mess up the setting up that bad either. i think orlando is leading the league in fast break points. meanwhile brake check has donated about $4.87 to all those orphans from our fast breaks this year.
Definitely right there...29 out of 29 GMs would've done the trade to get Francis, Mobley, and Cato for T-Mac and change. Right now, Francis is making the Magic's GM look brilliant, as he's been the best player involved in the deal so far, from an individual and team standpoint.
The Magic are not better than us (the Rockets) right now? Francis is not having a better year individually than T-Mac, and anyone else involved in the deal, right now?
pgabriel: It seems to me like "building a team to suit Francis' talents" involves just adding Grant Hill. The Magic of this year are basically like last year's rockets, replacing Yao with a rebounder (dwight), and adding Hill. If building a team to get the most out of Steve involves getting a multi-faceted point-forward to take some of the ball handling duties, then that is just not easy to do. The only other guy I can think of like that is Odom, and he seemed to be a nutcase before last year.
So, you won't blame T-Mac or Yao if we fail to win 50 games this year? Okay. Good to know. I'm gonna hold you to that.
well . . i notice all steve Threads get moved to the dish while we can still talk about Tracy Murray but oh well . . . i just increase my reading of the Dish Rocket River
Ahh..the big picture. If I remember correctly, most people thought the big picture would be seen IMMEDIATELY with the addition of T-Mac -- i.e., the next "Kobe-Shaq," "a new dynasty is born," etc. And for some of you to now say the trade was made for the future, this seems to be a little bit of a backtrack. But, to answer your question...no. I think I made it clear when I said "AS OF RIGHT NOW" the trade has worked out great for the Magic. Key phrase being 'AS OF RIGHT NOW.' AS OF RIGHT NOW the Magic, Steve Francis, have made out better in the deal. The biggest Francis-hater/lover, T-Mac-hater/lover, Rockets-hater/lover, Magic-hater/lover, can't argue with stats. Period. And do you honestly think that with the way the Rockets are playing now and the way the Magic are playing the numbers will magically change? Will the West teams that are currently better than us -- Jazz, Mavs, Spurs, Suns, Sonics, Lakers, Kings, Nuggets, Clippers -- get worse while the Rockets "find their way?" Will the Magic realize that they're not suppose to be this good and win only a few more games than they did last season (21)? Of course not. And back to the subject of the 'overall big picture.' While I agree that the future can be bright for us (the Rockets), the Magic aren't in bad shape either. They have a teenager in Howard who is going to be a beast for years to come. Francis is like 26 or 27 years old. Mobley isn't 30 yet, Hill is in his early 30's, but with all the time he's had off his legs are as fresh as anyone's (he could easily play 3-5 more years if healthy). They have young depth in Turkoglu (sp?) and Nelson and Stevenson. And a GM willing to make big trades (as evident with the T-Mac deal). They seem to be setup pretty nicely for the future as well.
All right guys, see Sam fisher and I are not the same person. We are on the same thread. I agree with your statement. My disargreement is Sura. He is a mythical figure. He will be the X FACTOR. My instinct tells me that.
Well, when you said, "Definitely right there...29 out of 29 GMs would've done the trade to get Francis, Mobley, and Cato for T-Mac and change. Right now, Francis is making the Magic's GM look brilliant, as he's been the best player involved in the deal so far, from an individual and team standpoint," you seemed to clearly indicate that 29 GM's would have traded away Tmac for Francis and crew. Of course, it is obvious that the magic have a better record and Francis is putting up marginally better stats than Tmac in a much faster paced system, but that does not change the fact that 29 GM's in our same position last offseason would have pulled the trigger on same trade. Even if GM's could act in hindsight, as you seem to be suggesting, and could see Francis playing well, and the rockets struggling, most of them would still have done it. No matter what happens, no matter how bad the coach is, or how crappy the role players are, we have 2 of the best players in the league and unless the unthinkable happens, they will be together for a long time.
Ultimately the trade comes down to 2 are better than 1 Tracy < Francis and Cuttino Not su much in skill . .but it takes three people to guard Cat and Francis and two to guard Tracy The reason Orlando is looking great is the same concept Cat + Francis > T-mac Cato + howard + Hill > Yao and JJ ward + generic PF > two sammiches The QUESTION: Is it better to have UBER TALENT in two position subpar to average everywhere else or Above average Talent at 4 Positions and average talent in the other positon? This is not even taking into account the bench So Is YAO + T-mac + the rest > YAO + Francis + Cat +the rest as of now. . that is debatable the queation is THE REST some say what we have now is less than last year I do not agree JJ is the same Mo is the same Boki the same or better J howard suppose to be better than Cato Ward/Lue suppose to be SOLID Rocket River
Everyone except the Magic GM I guess. *lol* Who, in hindsight, forsight, whatever 'sight' you want is loving the trade. And if you listen to all the 'experts' now, all you'd hear is how the Rox gave up TOO MUCH for McGrady. So don't be so quick to say, "Oh, yeah, ALL THE GMs would do this trade 1000 out of 100 times." Look, as of right now, I'm not stating my opinion, these are facts. Slice it whichever way you want, whether Francis is barely (marginally) better than T-Mac right now or WAAAY better than him, the fact is, he's playing better right now. That's like saying our Rox are just marginally sucking as a team and the Hawks are majorly sucking. *lol* BTW, if a 6'3 PG is averaging over three more boards a game than a 6'6-6'7 SG, that's a little more than marginal. I've seen a lot of fans hear bring up how much T-Mac is better than Francis b/c he's TALLER (among other things). And his APG and FT% is a little more than marginally better as than T-Mac's as well. The add JVG's tired offense, how much can we expect T-Mac's raw numbers (PTS, RPG, APG) to really improve? To your "we have two of the best players in the league' comment...." That may be true, but hey, I love Yao -- he IS the best C in the West...but he ain't Shaq. I love T-Mac, who has the POTENTIAL to CLEARLY be the best swingman in the league...but he ain't Kobe. I mention that b/c when the trade was made that was the first comparison made. Neither T-Mac or Yao have done anything to suggest they alone, a la Shaq-Kobe, can bring a team to a championship level. Can they? Probably (I hope so)...remains to be seen. As a ROCKETS fan, I'm happy for Francis and hope he and the Magic continue to play well. He has flaws as a player and it was time for he and the Rox to part ways, but I appreciate the heart in which he played for the team. And despite everything that went down this past offseason he didn't bad mouth the fans of Houston or the org. (just JVG to some extent). Remember, he didn't want to leave. This was not a T-mac-ORL situation. Honestly, this thread is probably more about some fans having a hard time admitting that the team's ill's last year weren't all on Francis.
Now that I have been called insane and obsessed by the creator of this site lay me just say this. I may at times seem over zealous of my defense of Francis, I may at times be an a-hole, and I may at times overreact to criticism. But really, the reason I’m like that about Francis is that I have never seen an athlete so unfairly criticized in my short life as a Houston sports fan. I’ve seen people criticize Moon, Bagwell, even the Dream, but I just feel it’s a different level with Francis that is just plain unfair at times. The people who live in here in Houston can tell you about the days when people called the sports station and complained that Francis and Mobley didn’t stand straight for the National Anthem. And I understand the reasons for this. First of all, Francis followed the championship regime. He was doomed from the start. He helped this team win 45 games his second season and people were already complaining that we didn’t get to the playoffs. You never want to follow a championship quarterback in football, and you never want to follow the Franchise player in basketball. Bottom line is this, Houston sports fans are spoiled by the championships. We’ve gotten a taste and now its all we want. Second, Francis represents the new NBA and I’m sure a lot of people weren’t down with that. A Bentley driving, one on one point guard, who got the nickname Franchise before every stepping on an NBA court. I know this didn’t sit well with a lot of Rockets fans. And I think the criticism of Francis sometimes reaches beyond his game, and just represents fans frustration with the current state of the game. And I just think it has been unfair, and I’m going to support this guy in Orlando because he’s a good guy, and all he does is want to win. All the criticisms you can cite about his game, the bottom line for me is this, the guy is fun to watch, he isn’t a knuckle head, he’s got unbelievable talent, and he wants to win.
Based on four years watching Steve Francis play, I don't think he will ever win a championship being the leader of a team. Based on watching Francis play for years, I don't think he'll ever win a championship being the leader of a team. And let me tell you exactly why Francis will never win a championship being a leader on a team. One, he's ain't no solid defender who can impact the game with his defense. Two, he's ain't no dominant scorer who can dicatate anyone at anytime. Three, he's ain't no smooth offense coordinator with all his dumb turnovers and untimely decisions. Put all three things together, we see first of all the big picture that Francis can't win with his defense like AK47. Now with only offense left, 1. He's ain't no superstar who can carry an offense to an title. 2. He's ain't no championship level point guard who can weave an offense like Isiah Thomas. From this standpoint he's not even as good as Chauncey Billups. Riding the Francis bandwagon will inevitably face a forkroad that leads to two dead ends. The Lakers route is shut down because Francis ain't no Kobe or Jordan. The Pistons-Trail Blazers route is shut down because of his defensive and offensive limitations. In a nutshell, Francis is just a poor man's Scottie Pippen with a lot less defense, passing, and more turnovers, just an undersized point forward playing at the 1, a bit better than Lamar Odom. So there's no way I'll regret trade him away for a top five superstar. If it's not for the money spending frenzy in the FA market, we'd be much better now in terms of overall talent. Our direction is correct, we are just hurt by temporary situation but Francis being helped by situation. Moving Francis is like sacrificing pawns to create space for the rooks. JVG might have not studied Sloan's NBA offense manual 101 but at least he studied the NBA GM manual. So Will is right on with seperating NBA offense manual and NBA GM's manual. If JVG can't get a grasp on NBA offense manual 101 soon enough, he's gonna get shipped out and replacing an NBA coach is a lot easier than trading away pawns for rooks.
To paraphrase Will's initial post: 1) JVG might not be a great coach. 2) McGrady is better than Francis. 3) I think those two statements are not related so let's talk about them separately. My opinion... I agree: 1) JVG needs to adjust some of his strategies because they are not serving this team well. Especially in the Toronto, Atlanta, and New York games. If JVG's team is still playing the same style and still losing games in the same manner at the end of the season then I think the diagnosis would be a coaching problem. We wouldn't need 3 more seasons to determine that. 2) I think CD decided in the Francis trade that he was VERY good, but he had limitations that would prevent him from leading a team to a championship. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to make after a 5 year evaluation period to me. If Houston's goal is to be very good, then trading Francis was a risky move and maybe even a complete mistake because of our depleted depth. If Houston's goal is to win a championship, then making the trade was our highest probablity option for eventually reaching that goal. Is there any doubt that our goal is to win a championship and not to just be good? 3) Self explanatory.
